First of all, "Science" does not say there is no free will. "Science" doesn't deny anything, it only supports that which there is strong emprical evidence for. It says there's no scientific evidence for free will, and thus free will is left to philosophers and theologians. The bounds of science currently find themselves neatly in line with the bounds of Materialist thought: we are only our matter. We are certainly in part our matter, this much is irrefutable. I argue that our physically objectively analyzable traits are only that; traits. Our matieralistic nature is not mutually exclusive with a nonphysical existence. The facts of science are not the whole show. Science looks at these things and leaves the rest alone. Materialism, the argument that only "Science" can provide the "Truth" is simply a philosophical stance; an opinion amoung many opinions. This is surely another debate.

I would offer the point that legality and public policy, as well as the thinking that guides most people to their conceptualization of human nature, is not only scientific, but also philosophical and theological.

To get to something that actually applies to this thread: I had not considered Testosterone as an addictive drug. An interesting point. An exremely good argument for castration on demand for those who ask for it. It's still the individual's reponsibility to ask for it when it is needed, but I see that this is not currently an option. Well said.

Let me be very clear on this, I'm worried that I'm misunderstood. I do not advocate abandoning anyone who makes a drastic mistake as a first step. The definition of the word "drastic" would change over time to include things like forgetting to salt the sidewalk. An old lady busted her hip, you're BANISHED!!! I advocate the type of system I do as a replacement for life- and death-sentences. The rest of the system should emphasize education and therapy MUCH more heavily, but my point is that for those who refuse to "get it" and reform, we should deny them the right to parasitically live off of our taxes without killing them. Their blood should not be on our hands, but niether should thier lives.

Frankie

p.s. This is seriously a shitload of fun. Thanks everyone for the great discussion!

I will gladly pay you Thursday for a cheeseburger today:D

Splitdick says:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:30 pm High libido is an amazingly difficult biochemical force to control. Imagine if you gave a coke addict a "magic" pocket which was always full of drugs. Do you really think that person could quit the drug with an unending supply always within reach? They might be able to exert their will for a couple days, but then it would fail and they would crash again into addiction. This is EXACTLY what it is like having a high libido. Every time I even think of women I get a huge RUSH through my body. I feel it. It is a wave of feeling. It is physical. How can I quit, if my "bad" thoughts are so powerfully reinforced? I have an unending supply of physical high ....

So don't be too quick to talk about free will and personal responsibility -- it is a nice ideal but you'll be constantly disappointed by reality. There are very few people in the world that exert free will all the time. Science actually says there is no free will at all -- that we are just a collection of molecules obeying immutable physical laws. I believe there can be free will, but I think we also cannot deny that we are biochemical.

Well, I disagree about the philosophy of "biochemical predetermination".

As one who has two undergraduate degrees and a Master's degree in science I can tell you that probability plays a BIG part in behavior.

The Psychologists always have much trouble in attributing behaviors to "NATURE or NUTURE". It is my experience that our nurture, that is our upbringing, has a GREAT deal to do with how we behave. While it is true that a Trumpet will never sound like an Oboe, both instruments acn play the same melody if the player is properly trained and educated.

Even a Sousaphome can be made to play a melody that is the same as the Oboe or Trumpet, just a few octaves lower. NOt better or worse, just different.

Splitdick, just becaue you have an insatiable sex drive that is difficult to control does not mean that you cannot do it. Maybe you should have had an outlet or maybe been allowed or even taught to use the Jocelyn Elders solution. Maybe you should have been around the right lady who as a girl complemented your condition. Chance, not pre-determination. Nurture, not nature. See?

At any rate, life is difficult to varying degrees because of #1 our nature and #2 our situation, neither of which do we have any control initially. Later, as we become aware, we can learn how we are and learn how to be kind to ourselves and keep ourselves away from situations that are not good for us. For example, if you were born blind, you might not want to become an artist. That would be difficult.

Take for example a child with a condition such as autism or perhaps severe cerebral palsy. Certainly, there can be no argument that these individuals would have a great problem becoming even SEMI-independent. This is by comparison not much different than one learning NOT to act on their tremendous sex drive. I doubt that you would want to put yourself into the position of being a gyneocologist with an insatiable sex drive.

On the other hand, it would be much easier for one with an insatiable sex drive to find a non-hazardous profession for himself and appropriate methods of dealing with a sex drive other than forcing himself or even herself on people who are not interested.

I guess what I am trying to say is that life is NEVER easy. If you are lucky you will have a life that is not as hard as the next person, but if you think about it, you can ALWAYS find somebody who is worse off than you are, and who has a harder life regardless of your circumstances.

So this is the point. Bottom line, there can NEVER be an acceptable excuse for rape. True, some people come accross as more "rapeable" than others, but just because they have a problem that is no excuse to take advantage of them. Most of the time a person who allows temselves to get into a compromising position is a casulaty of a "victim" syndrome and feeds of the attrention that being a "victim" brings.

LEARN TO LIVE AND LIVE TO LEARN. Predetermination is no excuse, it is a cop-out.

A-1

A-1,

I think we are saying the same thing. Both nature AND nurture create the biochemical process in the brain. Your brain function is nature and your brain patterns are nurture. So the great philosophical question is whether anyone can actually overcome their biochemical programming.

You said "

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2002 11:49 am LEARN TO LIVE AND LIVE TO LEARN. Predetermination is no excuse, it is a cop-out.

"

I totally agree that that is the ideal to which people should strive. But I believe that reality is that some or even many people will fail to acheive self-responsibity all the time. And as a society we must understand that. If we hold up everyone to ideals, then everyone will fail.

So we need both. Personally we should strive to be self-responsible. But when judging others we must acknowledge the difficulty of being self-responsible. That is the only way to truly address the human condition.

You said:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:57 pm So we need both. Personally we should strive to be self-responsible. But when judging others we must acknowledge the difficulty of being self-responsible. That is the only way to truly address the human condition...

also...

So the great philosophical question is whether anyone can actually overcome their biochemical programming.

It is not an ideal that I am referring to. Ideals are something to strive for. Surely we all have something to strive for. This idea of Rape is not something to take lightly. We just cannot tolerate it in a civilized society. We can not easily "overcome" biochemical programming, but we can use our power of intellect to chanel it in a non-harmful manner. This is being self-responsible. Indeed, it is a necessary trait for survival in society.

Remember, the vast majority that do anti-social things will get caught. It is just a matter of timing and circumstance. WE need to know that those who get caught are usually never caught the first time that they do something wrong, despite what they say to the contrary.

Now, with that being said I am willing to think about the biochemical things, but again our biochemisty is affected by our environment. If we allow ourselves to be overcome constantly by our baser instincts that does not mean that we have to do things that are harmful to others.

Suppose that the argument that you use was applied to a serial killer such as Jeffery Dahlmer or perhaps Ted Bundy. Is the "human condition" something that we should be using as a way to excuse the terribly harmful actions of these two serial rapists / serial killers?

To me the answer is obvious. If a person has the urges but finds a socially acceptable outlet such as fantasy / role playing / masturbation then we can be accepting of their needs and obsessions. They are hurting none with this type of outlet. They are giving in to their biochemical urges but they are doing it in a manner whereby no one gets hurt.

This is what I mean. People need to be trained or encouraged to accept their "human condition" by doing things that are NOT harmful to others. If people cannot control themselves and LEARN not to harm others then they need to be put away so that the rest of us can be safe.

We can NEVER accept people who harm others as being enevitable because of the "human condition." Even though we all know that monsters such as Adolph Hitler and Osama binLaden sometimes spring forth we must deal with them harshly because that, too, is part of the "human condition" Everyone should expect monsters such as this to get their comeuppance sooner or later.

So, in this sense perhaps we can agree. Surely we can do nothing about our feelings and urges but to channel them in such a manner where they are not harming others.

In doing so and demanding that society have rules to keep people from harming each other we insure our own safety. If just one of us is not safe from this then none of us is safe. If we harm others with our actions we will end up just harming ourselves more.

So, I say that RAPE is a heinous crime. Child molestation is not any different. Neither is murder. Although we all know that there are degrees of wrongness of crime, we also know that crime is not something that we should EVER tolerate. People who do the acts that I mentioned need to realize that they will be dealt with harshly if they are caught. Why, because the "human condition" demands it!

We may EXPECT crimes against others as a result of the human condition, but we should ACCEPT it, NEVER tolerate it, because of the human condition.

I hope that you can see my point.

A-1

A-1,

You said:

"

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm It is not an ideal that I am referring to. Ideals are something to strive for. Surely we all have something to strive for. This idea of Rape is not something to take lightly. We just cannot tolerate it in a civilized society. We can not easily "overcome" biochemical programming, but we can use our power of intellect to chanel it in a non-harmful manner. This is being self-responsible. Indeed, it is a necessary trait for survival in society.

"

You ARE talking about ideals, because in reality society and people don't work the way you want them to. They say that a woman is raped every six minutes in the US -- that is reality. If there are that many rapes, then there are more attempted rapes, and probably every second a man is considering raping. That is reality. It is a harsh world, and rape is not an unusual act.

Reality is that humans are predators, in fact the best predator on the planet. That is why our population is so large. We have automated our predation so we no longer need to hunt animals, instead we breed and raise animals by the millions just so we can eat their flesh. It is common sense that humans will naturally turn their predatory skills against each other. Even when individuals are subdued, countries predate against each other -- the US could easily feed starving nations, but it prefers not to.

You have the ideal that no one should hurt other people. That is cute, but not everyone shares that ideal. I like living in a world where death is always close at hand -- it makes life worth living. I like the fact I have to carry a gun to walk through my city. I like wondering if someone is going to crawl through my window at night. To me, that is the essence of being a man. If you don't understand this, I suggest you watch a Clint Eastwood movie such as "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" -- even "the good" is a ruthless killer. That is the morality that many men, throughout the world and history, live by.

It is a mistake to assume that society is a protective bubble. The world is harsh, even in the US. That is reality. That makes life exciting. Some might like the ideal of people living in suburbs, masturbating their fantasies away. Not me.

You said:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:33 am Reality is that humans are predators, in fact the best predator on the planet.

Indeed humans are great predators. Indeed we do are best hunting or fighting in packs. Similar to dogs it is the social and emoyional bounds that make us the best predators on earth. I trust that you would aknowledge a obvious defeat against a lion if left naked in the jungles of Africa.

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:33 am I like the fact I have to carry a gun to walk through my city. I like wondering if someone is going to crawl through my window at night. To me, that is the essence of being a man. If you don't understand this, I suggest you watch a Clint Eastwood movie such as "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"

You have a very harsh view of existance, in which conflict is the driving force motivating behavior. I came from a very harsh environment, and many of the guys I hung with had such an attitude. For the most part they are all dead or in jail. Victims of their minds and resulting lifestyles.

I must comment on the Clint Eastwood thing. Any man who has been in combat or lived in any life threatening situations will tell you that the image on the screen is false. Half the time you are running like hell. You see they leave this out of the equation. It is a male fantasy to regain power in a violent fashion. Often we feel so powerless in or lives that we fantasize about regaining the upperhand on some identified object, and yes usaully it is the "bad" guy.

Free your mind and your ass will follow. That is to say look at why you are sitting in wait for a moment to redeem yourself. Use your mind to unravel these mysteries. Reclaim your manhood through the relentless pursuit of the truth.

Many, many men have a similar fantasy as you. They indanger their families by leaving loaded guns in the home. It is such a shame that so often the victems are innocent children who have such little control over their destiny.

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:33 am It is a mistake to assume that society is a protective bubble. The world is harsh, even in the US. That is reality. That makes life exciting. Some might like the ideal of people living in suburbs, masturbating their fantasies away. Not me.

[/B]

Indeed at some level we are all guilty of ingaging in fantasy. Fantasy is a way in which we humans work out emotions and desires. However it can indeed become dysfunctional.

-plezherus

you say that:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:33 am It is a mistake to assume that society is a protective bubble. The world is harsh, even in the US. That is reality. That makes life exciting. Some might like the ideal of people living in suburbs, masturbating their fantasies away. Not me.

I see your point. With all due respect I want you to know that our lives are what we make of them. If you want to live life the way that you describe then that is what you want. It is also what you expect. From what you said in your quote it is your ideal. Ya see, you do have ideals, even if they aren't much by my standards. My faith in humanity is re-affirmed!

Hell, if all the men around here were like they were on "Deliverance" I would probably turn Gay and move to Miami or maybe even San Francisco. Vi wouldn't like it, but hell, she would be so busy getting raped by real studs that she wouldn't miss me, would she? I have a hard time believing that life is as desperate as you portray it where you live. But it may be, after all, you live there and I don't. Or rather you live there and I won't.

We do, however, live in a world of rules and laws. Even if they are enforced by street gangs, they are the rules of that society. Although the rules and laws get bent and broken often it is still no reason to suppose that it is a natural thing for man to be evil, show no remorse, live like an animal and rape, plunder and pillage. People who rape, murder and assault other people get locked up around here when they get caught.

Fortunately, we catch more of them than gets away so the rates of such things are stable here. Dirty Harry's world is an abberation. Either that or else everybody around here is so much like him that the creeps are afraid to get out of line. I guess that you could call the folks in these parts good ol' boys.

With that being said I want you to know that I am more rual than suburb and until two years ago I could walk out on my back deck and watch the corn, wheat, soybeans or what ever grow. In my part of the country one is more likely to see the tell-tale green of the 5 leafed cannibus plant growing between the rows, than the corner drug-dealer with his Ho's. Crystal methamphetimine is getting to be so much of a problem around here that most of the farmers that I know are ready to put landmines around their stock of anhydrous ammonia. The Pep Boys stores around here sure sell a lot of starting fluid.

I, too, have guns. But shotguns, 30-30's with deer scopes and the like are more the order of the day around here. Mine consists of 22 cal. squirel rifles and target pistols. We don't have to have any gun permits here. I guess that it is the same there, huh? But it is much easier to get a cow butchered now and then and put the meat in the freezer than it is to hunt squirrel, ducks and rabbit. So my guns are in a closet with trigger locks so that the grandchildren can't get at them.

So, good buddy, we have a culture clash. Or rather maybe an alternative life style. People who rape around here if they are as abundant as you say that they are there must be doing the livestock..... Hey!......That's it!

Maybe we could bring some ewes in a semi-truck there where you are and get some of the boys in your hood all cranked up and let them do the sheep for a while so as to leave the women alone. The women might actually get to like men again instead of converting to lesbianism, huh? Actually, the GAY population in THIS area have found a nice safe place to play. Sort of live and let live, you know.

Back to Barry HAD a little lamb...Of course, that would be cruelty to dumb animals turning the boys loose on the sheep and all but I guess that they would rather do that than to beat their meat, huh? Hell, everyone knows that REAL men don't masturbate, right? All the while the boys could be having crystal methamphetimine hallucinations that they are some kind of stud and that women enjoy being raped as much as men enjoy raping them and such.

Hell, I bet that if we shear the sheep for their wool, put a rubber mask of Pamela Anderson on their heads backwards and tie a couple of basketballs to their shoulders that the guys might not know the difference. We could even go to the local Wal-Mart and get some baby bottle nipples and some super glue to glue them to the tops of the basketballs so that the boys would have something to chew on until they came. Shit, if they were cranked up enough and the light were bad they probably wouldn't even notice the sheep shit. Hmmm,

Baaaah, maybe we better forget it, not a good idea. I just couldn't do that to a poor sheep.

As you were. Disregard this whole post, please.

A-1