America as the villian and the cause of the worlds woes...

[RavenWings (imported)]

Erik,

First of all, have you ever been to Canada? Ever met any Canadians? Do you honestly think that they WANT to be part of the US? Heck, Canada is ahead of the US on many social issues. Besides, if we started a war of global domination, Russia will bomb us into the ground. So will China, and Europe.

Nah...The way to take over the world isn't to conquer everyone. It is to make everyone like you. Right now, the most respected 'nation' on the planet is the European Union. Just about everyone wants to be like them. The US is becoming increasingly marginalized.

Of course, all of that schpeel is based upon the idea that you weren't being sarcastic. I'm very bad at spotting sarcasm. I find English to be very confusing at times.

Welp, off I go...bye

[A-1 (imported)]

Of course, all of that schpeel is based upon the idea that you weren't being sarcastic. I'm very bad at spotting sarcasm. I find English to be very confusing at times.

ME too.

But, seriously, folks..

I do not think that global domination is what anybody wants. At least not in the USA, at any rate. Well, with that being said I want everyone to think about Ravenwings quote...

Nah...The way to take over the world isn't to conquer everyone. It is to make everyone like you.

...which cuts right to the bone of the present world situation.

The sooner that all groups and their leaders realize that this is never going to happen, then the sooner we can have world peace. The groups in the world are making us like them. Pugnacious! The only difference is that after they lose, and the USA wins, the USA will go back to what it was before.

Since I, personally, have faith that many fanatics do not have the intelligence to realize how futile their desire to force America to kow-tow to their obscene demands is, I sincerely believe that they all must die. If there is something wrong with that, then so be it! That is one belief that I will die with and I won't die easy.

Until they demonstrate tolerance it will simply be a "kill or be killed situation" I am strongly opinionated that they should die first.

What is wrong with that?

Ravenwings also says...

Right now, the most respected 'nation' on the planet is the European Union.

Which is "loosely" modeled after the United States. If you look at governmental structures the European Union can be paralled with the U.S. federal government and the government of each nation can be compared with the state governments of the U.S.

It is not the same, of course, but, look at the structures.

It is obvious that as this European Union goes on and gets stronger they will be a great world power. But they are not there yet. War is a terrible thing. In a war for world dominance in the present day world there could be no winners.

In a war for world dominance I look to the teachings of the martial arts. It is always easier to defend ones' self than to attack another. America will never dominate the world. But America will never be dominated by outside influences.

This is something that is historically documented time after time. Just look what a country like Viet Nam has done. Over 20 years of battle with the French and then almost 20 years of battle with America. Through it all they were never dominated. Their autonomy came at a terrible price. They paid it without so much as a whimper. It was a war of mis-understanding. We were fighting against Communism. They were fighting for survival. I think that we all fail to realize the gravity of that time of history and the lesson that it holds for all.

They did not conquer America when America pulled out, but neither did America conquer them, either. The price that America was having to pay to accomplish its goal was just too steep. The people of America would not tolerate it. Perhaps the wisest statement that I have heard recently is Ravenwings...

Nah...The way to take over the world isn't to conquer everyone. It is to make everyone like you.

You cannot be taking over the world by war. World dominance comes by negotiation. Therefore, there will never be a total control of the world. The people and governments of the world can only be controlled by degree. You cannot dominate somebody until you can get into their heads and force them to think in a certain way. The historical background for this is the fact that the Spanish Inquisition failed to convert everyone to Roman Catholicism. It should be quite obvious to even the most idiotic human that there will never be a world religion.

Guess who won the "war" in Afghanistan. IT WAS NOT America. It was instead, the Northern Alliance. THINK ABOUT IT!

This is where the Arabic peoples have gone wrong. Bringing violence and terror to America has worsened their world position and not helped them at all. In short, the fanaticism of the Islamic fanatics has given both them and Islam a black eye in most parts of the world.

America has always been willing to negotiate. Sometimes what we have to say is not what the world wants to hear, but we are always willing to talk. We are willing to fight, too. America is strong enough to accept the ramifications of that decision, too.

Think about it.

A-1

Boy, I DO love to ramble, what?

[RavenWings (imported)]

Maybe I didn't word that right. I didn't mean make carbon copies of the US, but more pursue a policy that would make most countries feel more amicable towards us, while saying things like 'you really need to take care of your own afares. I never said it all made any sense.

Of course, I just ended up in a conversation that if I wasn't so bloody tired, I'd be angry about. Mostly, just one of those ignorant bullshits who thinks that just because he knows a few small number of people in one area that means that everyone else is like that. One who has bought into the idea of war with Iraq hook, line and sinker. He cannot seem to understand that what I was talking about was not the way in which we were going to go to war, just that people are not behind this war, either here in the US or in the world in general. And that if we do go to war with Iraq again, all we'll do is anger everyone.

I think that this will be my last post on this subject. I'm tired of debating it, defending myself, or getting upset over it. In the words of Madeleine Kahn "I'm tired"

Everyone have a good day and enjoy yourselves.

[RavenWings (imported)]

And yes, A-1, the Northern Alliance won the war with US and British support. If one looks at the EU one sees the possibilities of a negotiated world peace, but it is a slow process and can take years to arrange. Mbecki of South Africa is trying this in Africa, and Fox of Mexico is trying this in Latin America. If it works, then it will be the bigest evolution in governance seince democracy came into full being. It is a long road to go, and a long time to come before much of it can be done, but it will probably happen eventually.

[A-1 (imported)]

Please get your rest, but stay here with us.

No place ever suffered because of diversity.

What the future holds in store, I cannot say. What I can say is that we have learned lessons form history.

After WWI and before WWII saw the rise of fascism in Europe. The world sat quietly by and watched the rise of Adolph Hitler. Joseph Stalin of Russia found out that there could be no negotiated peace with him. We soon ended up in a war. Despite popular opinion, it was a war that America DID NOT want, but ended up with anyway. We did not declare war until after we were attacked. Remember Pear Harbor?

Flash forward.

Albert Einstein said regarding the Atomic Bomb...

"...for there is no secret. And where there is no secret there can be no defense..."

Sadam has consistantly thumbed his nose at the world. He is comparable to Hitler in many ways. He has practiced genocide against the Kurds. He has invaded his neighbor Kuwait. He went to war with Iran. He is a despicable despot to his own country.

As an American I could care less what happens to him. I would suppose that those who I trust that are running America know much more about him that do I. If he needs to be taken out of office then they are better judges that I am.

With the echo of Albert Einstein's words ringing in your ears surely in your heart of hearts you know that we as humanity cannot stand by and watch Saddam get the capacity to manufacture weapons of mass destruction and do nothing.

To do so would certainly threaten the lives of ALL of those living in or around the Middle East. The area is primarily Islamic, if that is of any consequence. Clearly, the Islamic Clerics who run Iran know that the first victim of atomic attack would most likely be Iran. They cannot trust this pit viper any more than Stalin could trust Hitler. We cannot allow this man, Saddam Hussain, to do what it takes to become the Adolph Hitler of the 21st century.

Either he allows UN inspections, or he must go.

It is that simple.

So call me ignorant if you will, but I ain't no fucking idiot!

A-1

[RavenWings (imported)]

Oh, A-1, I do agree with what you are saying. I would like to see Saddam removed from power by one means or another. I am not entirely certain that he has any large amount of WOMD on hand. He would have to smuggle those components in, and right now, neither Iran nor Turkey are too keen on seeing that. But, he has probably managed to get some items into the country.

I just finished a course in Political Terrorism. The group I had to do a profile on was the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command. In recent years, the PLFP-GC has managed to get a lot of weapons for Hamas and Hizballah through the mountains of Turkey and Iran. They have a limited capability on the front of WOMD, but they may be able to procure some of the technology that Saddam needs to build these weapons.

Right now, I beleive that we need a lot more caution in dealing with this than we are currently showing. If we hadn't alienated so many in that area already, I, personally, would find someone who could assassinate Saddam. Then again, I don't exactly fight clean.

The US missed a golden opportunity back in October when Osama's son showed up in Pakistan. All we needed to do was caputure the boy, and tell his father to surrender. First of all, by doing this, we prove just how much of a coward Bin Laden is (especially after we parade his son around on TV), and then give Bin Laden 48 hours to turn himself in or we broadcast his son's castration. This also has the effect of hurting his image in the eyes of the Arab nations. The Soviets did this back in '79.

What I urge is caution, simple as that. Most Middle East leaders want to see Saddam gone as well, but they fear what could replace him.

How the future will go? I think that it will eventually get better. Eventually, people like Bin Laden will fade away. BUT, that is a long ways away. I think that the US has a lot of amends to make in the world, but I also think that we can do that. We must come to understand that we cannot foist our own beleifs on others and that democracy for a people with no history of democracy is always a dicy issue.

I beleive that tolerance is the best path in the world, and that hatred is not something to be passed on. Unfortunately, this is not how many people view the world.

Well, that seems enough for now. Thanks for letting me ramble on.

[colin (imported)]

RavenWings,

The best opportunity to remove Saddam Hussain, once he got into power was Desert Storm. Unfortunately, the Allies blinked.

I would like to thank you for bringing a little reasoned argument into this debate. Having listened to the utter crap written by A-1 and the denigration of any person from another country who dared to criticise the US I am glad that someone is prepared to put the other side.

Yes there are a lot of countries which have received aid from the US. The UK is included in this list too, but we are one of the few which have actually repaid the debt, in spite of the fact that the US has screwed us at every opportunity.

A-1 may not realise, but the US was behind Saddam Hussain taking power in Iraq and one of the reasons was to dilute the influence of the UK which at that time was a major player in the country. The US knew about his activities for many years before they finally condemned it publicly.

I regret the fact that our Prime Minister gives a very good impression of being President Bush's poodle, but I agree that of the possible choices of ally the US is the only real option. This country will continue to support yours for as long as there is a considered course and a moral basis on which to proceed.

What A-1 is doing, is shroud waving, totally disregarding the fact that the US has filled plenty of other people's shrouds. All that can do is to prolong any conflict. No right thinking person can attempt to justify September 11th, any more than they can Mei Lai - but I forgot, that massacre was not Americans it was carried out by them - Lt. Calley if I remember correctly. The US did not deserve that attack but taking the sort of indiscriminate revenge advocated by A-1 is not justified, either.

No, you do NOT have to bend over and allow yourself to be fucked by Al-Quaeda - but you should not expect to be able to do the fucking without consequences! No country is perfect, a little restraint, every now and then could stop things getting out of hand.

LOL

[RavenWings (imported)]

Hello Collin,

I do try to be rational and try to be very well informed. Not to spark any arguments, but I do read a lot of different news sources, and I watch the BBC World New.

The unfortunate fact is that the US feels hurt and bewildered by what happened. Of course, a number of us kind of expected this would happen eventually. I said at one point that the US did not start this 'War on Terrorism' simply because countries such as Britain, Germany, Spain, Israel, etc. had been waging this war for a long time.

And yes, the US helped Saddam get into power. Heck, the US has never really managed to put into power anyone who was either stable or kind. My great-grandfather, Ramon Antonio Delgado y Carbonell, protested the constant American intervention in the Dominican Republic. As far as anyone in the family has been able to determine, upon his return to the DR he 'disappeared' into one of Trajio's jails. There are a few rumours that he may have managed to get out of the country with the rest of the family, but we just do not know. Eventually, such men go away. Trajio did, Quaddaffi is in the process of doing so.

I have been monitoring what is going on in Parliament lately, and it seems that Blair is doing his best to back away from a solid stance behind the US. This is a tough thing for him to do, to be honest. How to stay freinds with a country that is as mentally unstable as the US is right now while not becoming a syncophant. Over all, I like what Blair is doing, but sometimes the closeness to the US is rather unnerving.

Watching the world stage, I constantly see where the US is being very quietly snubbed, such as Russia's cooperation with Iran over nuclear power. Putin said something about how the US gave Israel all of that tech as well.

I could say a lot more, but I need to be going. I am as well informed as I can be on world issues and politics. I look to Europe now as being the leading light in the world today, mostly because it is being blunt about how everyone needs to start taking care of themselves. And yes, while 9/11 was a tragedy, it is not a justification for the slaughter of others.

I am an historian, and one of the most talented in a generation (not to be modest or anything). I try to look at all sides and all angles. I also try to be as objective as possible.

Bye all

[A-1 (imported)]

Colin,

Damned right the USA is not perfect.

I am enjoying the international flavor of this discussion.

Let us keep it up. Maybe you all might be able to improve me. That is really what I am after.

Say, what did you all think of those web sites a few posts back.

Do any of you read arabic? What about you, Ravenwings? I am intersted in the discussions there but I am linguistically challenged.

I recall that the USA did help Sadam a lot during the Iraq-Iran war. But Saddam is an opportunist, and that is only a minor problem. I venture to say that every politician in America is also an opportunist.

Do you recall the story of Gerald Bull, the Canadian and the "so-called" Super-Gun? Who do you think killed him? There has been a lot of speculation that it was the Moussad, but I have never seen any proof.

Looking forward to your response.

A-1

[RavenWings (imported)]

je parlez francais un peau. Je ne parlez pas arabique. Translated, I speak French a little. I do not speak Arabic. Sorry, A-1, but that is how it is. I'm planning on taking German this upcoming semester. Unfortunately, they don't teach any really exciting modern languages here at our local college. I wanted to go to UGA, but I couldn't get in. And I, too, am enjoying the conversation.

So, NEWS FLASH (Opens her overcoat ), Iraq is setting up meetings with the UN weapons inspectors as a prelude to allowing them access to the country. How well and how long this will work is unknown, but lets go with the flow here. Of course I love what one person said, 'the lower the stock market, the more chance we have of going to war with Iraq.'

Just to throw out this rather divisive issue- I truely beleive that Bush is after war with Iraq in order to boost his approval ratings. Trouble is, only 33% of Americans favour going to war with Iraq unconditionally. The other 74% favour going to war only if Saddam attacks someone else or there is a proven link between Saddam and 9/11. (all statistics are thanks to the Gallup Organization) The feeling in a lot of the world is that Bush is bent upon finnishing what his 'daddy' didn't. So, maybe what needs to be done is not talk about war openly, but to build the case against Saddam and prove to the world that he must be taken out as a danger to the rest of the world.

Well, the Islamist regime in Iran is slowly crumbling. If we can stay out of that argument, we may actually see an end to Islamist extreamists as thier only victorious country falls appart.

Well, I'm off to bed, night all