I guess its like playing Russian Roulette with a 7 shooter, at some point you will shoot yourself in the foot. Nothing may ever happen to you, then again you could get hammered with the next shot.

I don't expect that you will ever tell us if that shot goes wrong, but we have been doing this for a long time, if it can happen it will.

River

Losethem (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:49 pm Sorry, until I have compelling evidence that you are medically educated, I'm going to disagree. The only people I've seen in here supporting those higher levels at 750-900mg per week are those SAME people who are abusing the steroids.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't buy your argument.

Since I was the one that was challenged to show why this high dose was wrong or against medical advice, I went and looked it up (in books, not online) and have that backing up what I said.

These excessive amounts of testosterone will cause hepatoxicity (that's the liver folks) which means that these drugs are ruining the liver if taken in excessive amounts.

For the record excessive amounts is anything that is above and beyond the levels stated on the label of the drug, and the levels that have been stated in this thread are significantly above what the label says is to be used. It also doesn't matter which form of the drug you're using. The references I looked in did not make *any* distinction between oral, bucoccal, injected, trandermal, or other forms of the drug. They are all listed on the same warning lists.

Until you can actually cite and show me where the scientific community is supporting your claims that what I'm saying are not true, then I have to dismiss what you're saying. For the record, anything you're citing from steroid.com (the link you provided above) is from the community of people profiting on the abuse and illegal use of steroids. When I went to the link you supplied, the first thing that showed up on the page was an advertisement for a site selling oral steroids without a prescription. Hardly a ringing endorsement for convincing anyone that this is a medically safe thing to be doing.

I was educated in actual schools and in hospitals about this stuff. The only education I'm seeing from those of you that are saying I'm wrong seems to have been obtained in a locker room.

These people that are using testosterone in the amounts mentioned *will* have problems, regardless of route of administration.

PERIOD.

--LT

Dude, you're the one criticizing and not quoting any medical evidence. You can't just come up with some claim about liver damage and then say other people have to prove you wrong.

Please show anything that shows injectable testosterone is harder on the liver than the average abuse people put on their livers. If there was anything credible I would like to know and I might change my opinion on the matter.

Even Wikipedia article makes an exception when mentioning liver problems as mostly being related to orals. Read anything about oral testosterone and you'll see that it is specifically modified to be processed by (and harder on) the liver, because the point is to get the liver to avoid filtering out the effect. Injectable steroids are not modified for liver processing, period.

I guarantee that anyone taking steroids has studied it more than you and more than most doctors. I agree there is a danger of the blind leading the blind (i.e. the citations are shared amongst steroid users).

However, also please show me all the celebrities and old school sports stars getting liver transplants due to their injectable steroid use. I guarantee you that every male action star takes them.

Please reference anything to back up your scare tactics.

I totally agree that there are some risks, but they are not liver risks. That is what I'm objecting to. There are heart risks instead.

The next thing is that liver health and heart health are reasonably easy to monitor. If your liver is showing stress then stop what you're doing.

I have studied this for over 25 years. I know dozens of guys who have cycled for that long. None have ever had health problems related to cautious use.

If you want to mention heart health -- high cholesterol, increased blood pressure, and potential for enlarged health -- then that is something worth discussing. Your liver stuff is just really out there in la-la land.

Here's more information for people to understand the huge difference between injectable steroids and oral on liver function:

endocrinologists:

- Dr. Michael A. Werner (admittedly he is an andropause therapy guy): There have been no reports of liver toxicity from transdermal testosterone replacement. However, oral testosterone replacement can cause significant liver problems"

- Richard A. Bebb (interestingly this guy was my endrocrinologist who is not into steroids or andropause replacement) "Liver toxicity is an exceedingly rare side effect that tends to occur only with some of the oral testosterone preparations."

Here's a medical endocrinology exerpt from Google books listing some steroids. Note that the one that says liver toxicity is specifically 17alpha (modified for liver processing, oral) while others specifically so "no evidence of liver toxicity". http://books.google.com/books?id=xdX5F4 ... 20testoste rone&f=false

Google books search hit on the Sports Science Handbook: "Oral steroids generally have more serious side effects compared to injectable steroids, with a far greater incidence of liver, kidney, cardiovascular and immune system problems being reported." http://books.google.com/books?id=ZXWrkV ... er&f=false

Here's another Google Book search result (this book is pro androgens) that says "injections, transdermals, gels, do not share this liver toxicity":

http://books.google.com/books?id=L5YY8r ... ty&f=false

Here's one where for guys with low testosterone, their liver function actually improves with testosterone:

- http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/153822.php

Here is the Drugs.com listing for androgel side effects details based on the clinical studies. Note no liver toxicity listed. http://www.drugs.com/sfx/androgel-side-effects.html

Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science: http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/anabstere ... eff.html#1

"Testosterone cypionate, testosterone enanthate and other injectable anabolic steroids seem to have little adverse effects on the liver. "

Anyway, all sex hormones do get processed by the liver, but "regular" (natural or injected) are processed relatively slowly and don't do much more stress than drinking alcohol. Oral steroids though get excreted if they don't get 17alpha methylation which is used to make them potent, but prevents the liver from getting it out of the bloodstream and apparently damaging the liver at the same time.

I agree that very large doses of regular testosterone would also stress the liver, but generally it is really not a stressor, and again is in line with regular stress put on with other normal lifestyle choices.

I've obviously picked the information that supports my view, and recognize there is other views, but my point is that there is a fair amount of real medical opinion that injectables are either non-toxic or mostly non-toxic. This is to refute your claim that our view is unsubstantiated and uneducated. I agree that like many drugs there is controversy on the subject -- but so is for most medications: check out the controversy over statin drugs (there are doctors that believe they don't help heart disease at all for most people). But you saying there is no medical basis for our claims is flat out wrong.

I think the thing that you don't understand is how extremely health-conscious bodybuilders are. I am vegetarian for the most part, don't drink unless it is a social occasion and then only moderate and only wine, don't eat any fast food, don't smoke, keep very healthy weight, exercise two times every day for over an hour (and exercise very intensely), eat multivitamins, etc. I look at health for the long term and in fact philosophically believe that people in our generation have the opportunity for serious life extension as our medical technology improves. So my support of judicious use of testosterone is based on very careful thought, years of study, and years of experience. It is not about short term gain for long term loss, it is a calculated attempt to maximize my life meaning feeling as well as I can for the biggest portion of my life that I can.

I admit that there are some health risks, but even then I'm not taking many of the health risks that others take, so call it my one indulgence.

You need to have some perspective -- there are now medical opinions saying that sugar (any amount) is toxic and will kill people in the long term and is causing majority of diabetes and fatty liver problems so prevalent today. Every building I go into at work has a warning sign that says that the building is known to contain cancer-causing materials. People happily ate trans fat for decades. People who ride motorcycles in my opinion have a death wish. Looking at the list of side effects on any drug (check out ibprofen) is scary, and can only be judged personally.

But your rabid anti-testosterone stance is really untenable. I object to your attitude and your specific claims about liver toxicity. A balanced opinion would say "there are some health risks, especially related to heart health and some cancers, that should be considered. Stick to modest amounts of injectables, and get your blood work done regularly". That is how you help people and possibly change their opinion.

The fact of the matter is in the medical texts I have used in my studies and the drug books that went along with them that injections are just as bad as pill forms and there is no difference made between the two in the citations.

I was told to go look it up, and I did. I'm not arguing which FORM is more or less toxic on the liver, I'm only stating that in the amounts mentioned on this thread that anyone that is using injections in those amounts is a fucking idiot.

There, I'm no longer sugar coating it. What I have said is independently verifiable if anyone wants to bother looking it up. I've already done the research, you guys refute me because it doesn't fit into you uninformed view.

If these people want to continue being fucking idiots and using this stuff without medical guidance, that's their problem. But I'm not backing down. I am however done with this thread, because it is seemingly filled with dumb asses that can't figure out that abusing drugs is bad for their bodies.

Again, the only people in this thread that I'm seeing supporting this notion that you can abuse steroids without impact on the body are body builders. Hardly the people who are the picture of being un-baised, and I'd speculate NONE of you have a professional license.

As far as this thread is concerned, I'm done. I do however want you body builders to feel free to continue wallowing in your ignorance on this issue. Apparently your brains are shrinking along with your balls.

--LT

And I think that just about sums it up nicely.

It would seem common sense is also lost when using steroids.

Just for the record, just about any drug you take even one given by your doctor to control what ever has an effect on your body, I don't care which one your taking they all have some side effect none of which are safe or good for you.

River