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Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:06 pm
by Lord Wrackspurt (imported)
Misha999 (imported) wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:00 pm The RCC is the arbiter of what is sinful for Catholics. The RCC condemns masturbation as a sin. The Bible really doesn't play in this issue.

Personally I have no position on the subject. The subject is a matter of what faith you hold and what that faith teaches. Sin is a religious / spiritual construct. If one is not religious then question is moot.

M

I understand, I wasn't trying to imply this was you making the argument. And it is a moot issue with me personally as I am not religious, though I have friends who are, and we get on well enough that we can talk about religion without them getting offended.

And I do understand that logic doesn't play in this too much, it's mostly a matter of "we decided that masturbation is a sin, and now we'll create the reason why to justify our actions."

LW

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:32 pm
by Misha999 (imported)
LW wrote:
Lord Wrackspurt (imported) wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:06 pm And I do understand that logic doesn't play in this too much, it's mostly a matter of "we decided that masturbation is a sin, and now we'll create the reason why to justify our actions.

Yep, that sums it up rather nicely.

M

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:51 pm
by HairyHarry (imported)
I remember that when I joined the Boy Scouts, the assistant leader took me on one side to explain to me that masturbation was a sin. What I did know then was that Baden-Powell had originally formed the movement expressly to wear boys out with physical activity that they'd be too tired to reach inside their pyjamas! I soon gave up Scouting, but took up masturbating instead!

The idea that it's a sin is typical of the control of the faithful that religious leaders crave. After reading "The God Delusion" by Professor Dawkins, I discovered that religiousity versus sexuallity is current everywhere.

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:26 pm
by SplitDik (imported)
The one thing I will say (being entirely non-religious, including no religious upbringing and no guilt from my parents) is that masturbation is sort of draining to me. I mean the masturbation feels good, but I can't say that I feel good afterwards.

I think that is the basis for all the proscriptions against it common around the world.

Also, for some of us it is addictive. So when you're masturbating 10 times per day (and usually 3 to 4 orgasms per session) it does seem like a negative thing in ones life.

Of course the answer is: everything in moderation. I think it is unhealthy to not masturbate, but masturbation is not entirely consequence-free either. When you're young, maybe once a day, when you're older maybe every couple days, seems to be the right amount for me.

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:20 am
by Solaris (imported)
Does the context decide whether a thought, word, or action, is a sin?

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:21 pm
by Prudence (imported)
I was raised Christian. Protestant, not Catholic. I'm still Christian. To this day, however, I am completely a self-study (and I also study other religions quite a bit). I don't regularly attend church because I've found too many churches teach/preach things that aren't in the Bible.

As far as the Sin thing goes, I haven't found Masterbation mentioned anywhere in the Bible (and if you have found a place that mentions it, please share!). I've found only two places which have something that MIGHT sort of allude to masterbation if you really put the blinders on and choose to ignore the obvious:

1. "Onan's Sin" (Genesis 38:8-10) mentioned in another post on this thread. I agree with the conclusions mentioned there, the sin was not "spilling the seed" but was that Onan was supposed to produce a child and chose to "pull out" specifically so he would not make a child. Just read Gen. 38:9 it explicitly says this, the reasons are given, there is no question... How someone gets "masterbation" out of that is beyond me.

2. That one extrodinarily lame/stupidly-worded scripture in the King James version that mentions "abusers of themselves with mankind" (Corinthians 6:9-10). I mean, seriously, WTF does that mean??? What moron chose to use those words? I bet that phrase didn't even make sense back in the 1600s!!!

I've heard a number of sermons on this verse claiming it means any number of things: masterbation, sexual self-violence (cutting/modding your genitals), any sort of fetish, any sort of sexual perversion, any type of sexual activity other than with a woman, and a man commiting any sexual activity involving the genitals with another man. To me that last item seems to be the most accurate, and coincides with other scriptures such as Romans 1:26-28.

I do not know what the Quran says about Masterbation as I have not read very much of it yet. Same for Mormon texts.

Also, consider this... If "spilling the seed" was a sin, then every man would be guilty because of Wet Dreams. A rather large nail in the coffin for the "Onan's sin was masterbation" lie some preach.

So, bottom line: According to the Bible, Masterbation is NOT a sin.

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:26 pm
by SexlessC23 (imported)
Lord Wrackspurt (imported) wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:06 pm I understand, I wasn't trying to imply this was you making the argument. And it is a moot issue with me personally as I am not religious, though I have friends who are, and we get on well enough that we can talk about religion without them getting offended.

And I do understand that logic doesn't play in this too much, it's mostly a matter of "we decided that masturbation is a sin, and now we'll create the reason why to justify our actions."

LW

Well first off let me say I'm RC. And I don't think masturbation by itself is a sin.

That said, you have to understand that the RC Church approaches sexual matters from the standpoint of Natural Law which is itself rooted in the philosophy of St. Thomas of Aquinas, who in turn was largely influenced by Aristotle who thought that in essence, a man's ejaculate contained more or less fully-formed embryos, with the woman being a mere incubator. So that, by masturbating, one would be killing babies, a form of abortion.

Taken on the basis of this primitive (mis)understanding of human reproduction, then prohibiting masturbation made perfect sense.

Aquinas refined our understanding of Natural Law (has nothing to do with "natural" in the biological sense; it means in the sense that God has inscribed a law on the hearts of humans so that those who examine their consciences carefully, basically follow God's law requiring that we do good even if they aren't really believers). In his view, the sexual act performed in the normal way (male to female vaginal intercourse) caused a couple to become, physiologically, a single unit. Two people being needed for the sex act was as natural as breathing being necessary for life.

When you think of it, that makes perfect sense. There is no other physiological process, among mammals, that requires two individuals. Breathing, digesting, etc, can all be done by an individual without the help of others.

But in copulating, a man, and a woman, actually form a single physiological unit; sexual intercourse can't happen with one's self! And it doesn't matter whether the act is fertile or sterile; they are still engaging in a process that actually requires two individual to perform it. That's why, when talking about things sexual matters, the issue of whether an act between a man or a woman is sterile or fertile is actually a red herring from the POV of Natural Law. A post-menopausal couple engaging in intercourse is engaging in a perfectly natural act. Even if it doesn't lead to reproduction, it is happening in the manner of its design.

Taken in that light, masturbation, and any other form of sexual gratification (for the male) that does not result in, well, ejaculation inside the female, is seen as using the sexual faculty against its nature. For Aquinas, using the sexual faculty for, say, self-gratification (or same-sex unions) makes as much sense as breathing through the oesophagus or swallowing through the windpipe. Seed was meant to go in one place and one place only.

When it comes to nocturnal emissions, these are not willed but happen spontaneously and therefore no guilt is attached to it. On the other hand, masturbation is a willful act. I can go into detail about venial vs. mortal sin, and I happen to believe that for most, masturbation is a venial sin (it happens in spite of ourselves), and when it is compulsive, it is a psychological disorder which mitigates the guilt from sin. But I won't go too far down that road!

Where, however, I think the theory on the sinfulness of masturbation breaks down is that to impregnate with healthy, fresh sperm requires regular ejaculation. So masturbation may in fact be nature's way of maintaining the health of sperm so that when you do impregnate there is a lesser chance of birth defects from "old" sperm. Moreover there is some evidence that frequent masturbation especially when young is protective against prostate cancer.

It's also entirely inhuman to expect one to never, ever masturbate. It ain't going to happen. I also think it's a natural way of discovering one's sexuality, and it's a healthy means of sexual expression when one doesn't have a willing partner or is of an age or in a social circumstance that makes intercourse inadvisable. Philosophically, Aquinas' reasoning is perfectly logical.

So if you ask me, the RC "official" view on masturbation is in fact perfectly logical. What it isn't though, is human. Or even within the natural capacity of humans.

That said, I think masturbation is a "sin" when it is compulsive, or used as a means of avoiding normal marital relations, or is used as the main form of sexual gratification when normal, natural, licit sexual opportunity exists. On the other hand, if one's spouse is ill, or unavailable (say when traveling), it is far preferable to cheating! I also don't think anything is wrong with using it as a means of sexual variety with one's partner!

YMMV. By no means the "official" Church view. But the RC Church does require you to use your conscience, and to follow a well-formed conscience even if it goes against official teaching. Mine happens to say that the Church's view of masturbation is founded on an entirely flawed view of the human physiology of reproduction.

From a personal standpoint I have to say I find masturbation less satisfying than normal sex. And I found normal sex most gratifying when it was fertile, that is, we were attempting to have a baby (which was successful). Oddly, it was very much a powerful, very much spontaneous feeling and I remember remarking how powerful it was at the time; I never in my life felt more "virile". Remarkably, I felt this and noticed it in a period when I was more or less atheist/agnostic. Which does support the view that there is a "natural" law on the hearts of men that makes us distinguish right from wrong regardless of whether we are "believers" or not.

In any case does it really matter anymore? The new religion is Global Warming. Where I used to feel guilt over sexual matters, I am now made to feel guilty if I forget to bring reusable shopping bags when I buy groceries, or when I drive my car... humans seem to have this propensity to want to control others... once it was sex, now it is driving my car.

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:18 pm
by george2u2 (imported)
You can't masturbate too much.

If you are getting scabes, use more lotion.

"if electricity comes from electrons then morals come from morons!"

if you believe that masturbation is sin? I have a quote from the geico, "we've been duped!"

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:29 pm
by george2u2 (imported)
The book "Population Bomb" explains that the sin is in the exploding population of the world.

Religions will have to come to the realization that Sterilization and Masturbation are virtues.

When you cut your green house gasses down to the point that it would only take 8 planet earths to sustain your emissions.

THE LIGHT WILL COME ON! WE ONLY HAVE ONE EARTH!

Re: Masturbation is it a Sin?

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:06 pm
by transward (imported)
Well, of course masturbation is a sin.

Da.

If it wasn't forbidden and naughty, it wouldn't be anywhere near as much fun.

If we were instructed to do it three times a day for proper health, we would bitch, moan and whine (the classic BMW) and avoid it.

Transward