OMG-my arms do taper out, I've so been in denial!

Don't understand the chair test though.

J

I understand the chair test. I am sitting in front of a fan testing one right now. --FLO--

Paulault, I can do your test also, but I can't do the chair test. I don't have a caboose.

Hairless (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:07 pm I have never seen this posted here, so I thought I would mention it.

Evidently most MtF Transsexuals have female arms. I always wondered why I throw a ball like a girl. I found out I have girl arms. If a man hangs his arms by his side and turns his thumbs out, his arms still hang down straight. If a woman does it, her arms taper out from the elbows out away from her body. It seems most MtF transsexuals, including me, have arms that do this.

Hi Hairless,

I just tried it and you're absolutely right! My arms do taper out from my elbows and away from my body. A very interesting observation.

I can also do the chair test without a problem. I guess it's just another way you can tell I'm really a girl.

I think we are looking at this subject from the wrong point of view. On a statistical basis there are significant differences between male and female bodies, width of shoulders, hips, ratios between waist and hip, flexibility, average amount and length of body and head hair, etc. But these traits are distributed among both men and women in the classic bell shaped curve, and there is considerable overlap between men and women. Related to these differences is behavior to signify sexual status, even in populations that may not have a lot of the traits. Thus most girls imprint with behavior matching what society thinks is appropriate for girls long before they actually have the physical traits. Most of this is completely subconscious. Girls carry their books across their breasts in school long before they have breasts to protect. They swing their hips before they have hips. But some children for reasons we do not understand imprint with behavior appropriate to the opposite sex. These are the classic fem boys; many will grow up gay, some trans a few straight. They swing their hips, carry their books across their chests, fail to keep their wrists stiff etc. All of this is the vocabulary of body language. And as many on these boards can testify, other children are going to read this language. Bullies will spot these behaviors often before we are fully aware of it ourselves. Psychologists have cataloged dozens of these sexual signs. The Biolab link I enclosed earlier is one attempt to catalog some of these. The point is not just that they recorded thousands of people walking, but that they showed the point pictures to tens of thousands of people in many cultures who were asked to rate them on a number of scales including male-female. So these are behaviors that are read by most people as male or female. One of these is the angle between the upper and forearm. And the test as I have heard it is significantly different from that described by Hairless. When you rotate the thumb to point out, you are rotating the angle of the hinge of the elbow to about 45 degrees to the body. From that position, unless you have wide shoulders and a very flexible elbow your forearm can only point out. That is why trans and drag queens are told to rotate their hands out, it forces them to the feminine angle. The test as I heard it originally described was to stand behind someone and look at the angle made by the arms. Men and people perceived as men had arms like this ( ). Women and people perceived as women had arms like ) (. The test is how they habitually carry their arms. That many transsexuals exhibit behavior perceived as female should come as no surprise.

Transward

.....

mrt (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:30 am and heard a "crack" sound so I stopped.

I dunno....

Whoa there!

transward (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:37 pm I think we are looking at this subject from the wrong point of view. On a statistical basis there are significant differences between male and female bodies, width of shoulders, hips, ratios between waist and hip, flexibility, average amount and length of body and head hair, etc. But these traits are distributed among both men and women in the classic bell shaped curve, and there is considerable overlap between men and women. Related to these differences is behavior to signify sexual status, even in populations that may not have a lot of the traits. Thus most girls imprint with behavior matching what society thinks is appropriate for girls long before they actually have the physical traits. Most of this is completely subconscious. Girls carry their books across their breasts in school long before they have breasts to protect. They swing their hips before they have hips. But some children for reasons we do not understand imprint with behavior appropriate to the opposite sex. These are the classic fem boys; many will grow up gay, some trans a few straight. They swing their hips, carry their books across their chests, fail to keep their wrists stiff etc. All of this is the vocabulary of body language. And as many on these boards can testify, other children are going to read this language. Bullies will spot these behaviors often before we are fully aware of it ourselves. Psychologists have cataloged dozens of these sexual signs. The Biolab link I enclosed earlier is one attempt to catalog some of these. The point is not just that they recorded thousands of people walking, but that they showed the point pictures to tens of thousands of people in many cultures who were asked to rate them on a number of scales including male-female. So these are behaviors that are read by most people as male or female. One of these is the angle between the upper and forearm. And the test as I have heard it is significantly different from that described by Hairless. When you rotate the thumb to point out, you are rotating the angle of the hinge of the elbow to about 45 degrees to the body. From that position, unless you have wide shoulders and a very flexible elbow your forearm can only point out. That is why trans and drag queens are told to rotate their hands out, it forces them to the feminine angle. The test as I heard it originally described was to stand behind someone and look at the angle made by the arms. Men and people perceived as men had arms like this ( ). Women and people perceived as women had arms like ) (. The test is how they habitually carry their arms. That many transsexuals exhibit behavior perceived as female should come as no surprise.

Transward

Indeed. I do agree with your statement: "

transward (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:37 pm That many transsexuals exhibit behavior perceived as female should come as no surprise.

"

However, that is the point that I am driving at, that the recognition of an individual's identity should be on the basis of who they are inside, not what they appear to do superficially. There are cisgendered women who are just as unfeminine, who "learned masculine behavioural traits" and yet are acknowledged as female. I think while Biolab's research shows that people perceive male elbows to be (0) shaped while female elbows to be )8( shaped, the truth is, the perceived differences do not match up to reality. Remember, what is socially perceived is hardly dependable, go back 150 years in american history and black people were socially perceived to be inferior. That wasn't true either was it? That society is sadly not as enlightned yet, and that many transwomen are learning what is socially perceived as "female behaviour" because the ends justifies the means, is not something to be proud of at all, nor does it really indicate that a person is transsexed.

Something like this: "

transward (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:37 pm That is why trans and drag queens are told to rotate their hands out, it forces them to the feminine angle

" just makes a person appear to be a caricature of feminity. I don't think someone is female just because he or she holds her arms out like that you know, instead I would think they're TRYING to pretend to be one, and honestly just a poor parody of one no matter how perfect their "female" posture and walk is. Some of the best passing transpeople I know do not bother with superficial stereotypes at all. It such a crying shame to depend on something crass like social stereotypes instead of letting inner confidence in one's own identity be the critical factor.

Now the chair lifting thing, I did it easily, but I would not suggest that being able to do it is any conclusive proof that I am female, because as I mentioned, I am short and am able to do it easily. short people have a low CG afterall. No, if there is anything I'd rather base my identity and validation on, its my brain.

My poll has garnered 80 replies now. out of those, 78 are male identified responses, 2 are female identified responses. I'm attempting to identify the physical sex of the 2 female identified responses, but of the remaining 78 males, only 10 of them have parallel arms. I think any transperson here now using the arms tapering out thing to claim that it is conclusive proof that they're really female needs to stop being delusional, because 68 cisgendered men share the same tapered arms as them. If we're taking the majority evidence as proof then I wouldn't crow about having tapering lower arms because it seems more valid as proof that one is male.

Truth is though, as I mentioned, people of all genders and identity have mostly repsonded that they have outwards tapering arms, so claiming that tapering arms prove one is transsexed & female is about as useful as claiming that having a head on your shoulders is "conclusive proof" that one is transsexed & female.

I would suggest that anyone who validates themself on such logic seek help pronto.

hey Pink , do you think you might be a little overly concerned with this monumentally tiny aspect of transexualism, when it seems to be just a gender differential, a few contrary results aside, especially considering you are not exactly applying the rigorous standards of the scientific method.

EricaAnn (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:58 pm Hi Hairless,

I just tried it and you're absolutely right! My arms do taper out from my elbows and away from my body. A very interesting observation.

I can also do the chair test without a problem. I guess it's just another way you can tell I'm really a girl.

Ok but WHY can I do the chair test?!? And I don't quite understand the arm test unless we are talking about the trying to touch your elboes together thing which I flunk...

p.s. you new avatar... Hubba hubba!

Whoa there!

Of course I AM getting older....

I tried the other test (the Cogiti?) but I think its a bit too direct and for those of us who don't cross dress rather ahh pointless to take... I think? Or are those "trick" questions.