With all due respect Sag, that argument is one of the main arguments that disgusts me we christianity. The use of fear (you're going to burn in hell) is used to brainwash little children as well as all others. I personally find te "fear factor' dispicable.

I have NO fear of judgement in an afterlife. If I'm wrong and there IS an all knowing, all seeing creator of the universe... I'm sure he will look me in the eye and say, "I can't blame you for not believing . I can see inside your mind and heart and I know that you came to a logical point of view after sorting through all the bullshit."

Could a loving creator damn me for simply not belieing ONE of an endless number of such flawed theologies? I doubt it. I doubt that such a grand creature could be so small and petty. I would have to give him more credit than that If I believed that he even existed.

My faith is something that is a lot deeper than being on the right side of Pascal’s wager. When God became man.. sure He could have been born atop mount Olympus in the middle of a fireworks display with angels singing. But no, God humbled Himself and entered the finite quietly in Bethlehem. The reason is faith; faith is the currency God deals in. The just live by faith.

People say they want a sign, something that can be proven in court. God is not obligated to prove Himself to anyone. But He does so everyday thru His creation and your conscience. Jesus said He would manifest Himself to anyone that keeps His commandments and loves Him. Granted that the first step is to come by faith. God says draw near to Him and He will drawn near to you. Out of perfect love He will not force anyone. It is your choice to taste and see that the LORD is good.

I sometimes think about people on here who have convinced themselves that Jesus was not a historical figure, what they think of me and my castration for the Kingdom. I must look like a total nut. Ha-ha. Well some background on me is that I am a regular guy. I’m not a religious zealot, I’m not crazy. I’m very normal. I’m not a mealy mouth Christian, so if you take testimony seriously read on. I love Christ, I have His commandments and I follow them. God has manifested Himself to me. I don’t assume anything. I know for fact that God is real and He is the God of the bible. Even after this experience it is hard to keep eternity in perspective so I still struggle with unbelief and walk by faith.

I was castrated for the Kingdom. Assuming Jesus was not, what was the logical reason for me to be castrated? I can tell you the real reason is that I know God; I went thru a metaphysical change when I came by faith and He led me to where I am. One reason was to join this archive and to let you know where you stand before a Holy God and how to know Him.

Love

randy

randy (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:44 pm I must look like a total nut. Ha-ha. Well

one thing about me,

randy (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:44 pm is that I am a regular guy. I’m not a religious zealot, I’m not crazy. I’m very normal.

Love

randy

The few crazy people that I have ever known have vehemently denied being crazy..... just sayin.

randy (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:44 pm Jesus said He would manifest Himself to anyone that keeps His commandments and loves Him.

Randy I do believe that I live a moral and truthfull life being honest to all that comes before me, however 'GOD' has not manifested himself to me!

I have had an expirence once of feeling the energy of the Earth/existence rise up and vibrate up through me. No I was not on Acid and 'GOD' did not manifest himself. It was more like energy rising through the spine, as in the Kundaliny riseing.

Just like everything else in my life, I have gone back and forth with my religious beliefs. At times I have believed, and at other times I have not.

I have read "The Jesus Mysteries." It is an interesting book. There are many other stories out there very similar to Christ's story that predate the Christ story. Most Christians are not aware of these stories. Those who are usually prefer not to acknowledge them. I have not heard any good explanations from anyone as to why these other stories exist if Christ's story is the only true one. All I have heard are painfully unconvincing explanations, such as that Satan planted the other stories before Christ in order to confuse people.

At times I doubt that this universe, being as orderly as it is, could have really just popped out of nowhere due to chance. I feel this way even more so about life. I also wonder what the point of this life can really be if this is all there is to our existence, and if it is really possible for this life to be all there is. Surely there has to be something more to our existence than just 70 or so years?

But there are other times when I find convincing the argument that man has created religion in order to explain what he cannot, and to satisfy his desires for eternal life. Certainly most people do not want to die, and the idea that we live on forever after death in a magical paradise is a very appealing idea, at least to most people.

About Pascal's wager - I have to strongly encourage all Christians who have respect for themselves and their beliefs to stay away from this argument. It has to be the most flawed argument ever developed in the great religion debate. Regardless of whether I have been in a believing or unbelieving phase, I have never approved of this argument.

There are two major flaws with the argument, and there are also a number of other flaws that I will not get into.

The first, and perhaps the strongest, is that the wager does not explain which God is the right one to believe in. There are many Gods that we have created over the course of our existence. How do we know which one is the right one? If we choose the wrong one, then presumably we will suffer the same consequences we would if we choose no God when there is one. So the odds of being right are not 1 in 2, as the wager seems to claim. They are 1 in however many Gods exist.

The second flaw is the assumption that one loses nothing if he believes when there is no God. If this life is all there is and we pass it up in hopes of a fantasy life that doesn't exist, I'd say we lose quite a bit. The wager attemps to counter this flaw with "finite" and "infinite" loss and gain, but it doesn't explain why if this life is all there is, losing it would only be "finite" loss and living it to the fullest would only be "finite" gain. If it's all we will ever have, I'd call the losses and gains involved pretty infinite.

I also want to say that regardless of whether I believe or do not believe in God, I most certainly do not believe that science is the only way we can acquire knowledge. I see so many atheists out there worship science as if it were a god and say all we can ever know has to be gained through science, and if we can't prove it through science, then by default it cannot be true. I find this to be a limiting viewpoint. Surely there is more to life than science, which is manmade and subject to the same flaws as anything else in this universe.

Basically, we can all have our beliefs, but no one is really going to know for sure what is real and what is not until we die. And if there is no afterlife, then presumably those who believe in one will never know they were wrong.

Lesley (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:12 pm Randy I do believe that I live a moral and truthfull life being honest to all that comes before me, however 'GOD' has not manifested himself to me!

Christ will manifest Himself to those that keep His commandments and love Him. Come to God by faith, grow in grace. God will provide the love and He will prove Himself to you. John 14.21

You know I cant keep those commandments but I know I cant but this is why God died for me and this is his promise to all of us.

SAG111 & Randy,

I can feel the intensity of your feelings but I feel that the both of you are getting a little intrusive into the space of others.

One of the curses of the way you two think is that you are looking into the next life after death and who know what happens then, even if you two do think you know.

The point I am making is that this fear of the after life destroys your ability to live in the moment, in the here and now! Thus this kind of thinking cripples you capacity to live.

Just reflect and think on it for just a moment.

There have been many many joyful Christians and those who were joyful where living in the moment and not dweling in the underworld.

This is my last post on the subject for I belive that one's spiritual beliefs/religon/spirituality is in the same private domain as one's sexuality.

Problems arise in society when sexuality and religon take the public stage.

Render under Ceaser what is Ceasers and under "GOD'/Existence what is "GOD'/Existence!

Lesley (imported) wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:58 am SAG111 & Randy,

I can feel the intensity of your feelings but I feel that the both of you are getting a little intrusive into the space of others.

One of the curses of the way you two think is that you are looking into the next life after death and who know what happens then, even if you two do think you know.

The point I am making is that this fear of the after life destroys your ability to live in the moment, in the here and now! Thus this kind of thinking cripples you capacity to live.

Just reflect and think on it for just a moment.

There have been many many joyful Christians and those who were joyful where living in the moment and not dweling in the underworld.

This is my last post on the subject for I belive that one's spiritual beliefs/religon/spirituality is in the same private domain as one's sexuality.

Problems arise in society when sexuality and religon take the public stage.

Render under Ceaser what is Ceasers and under "GOD'/Existence what is "GOD'/Existence!

How DARE you impose your beliefs on me. why cant you just accept me for who i am?? hrrmph!

how dareth thou.

randy (imported) wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:38 pm How DARE you impose your beliefs on me. why cant you just accept me for who i am?? hrrmph!

how dareth thou.

Oh oh...

...break out the flame-throwers...

...one thing to say, and it is going to hurt...

...sorry...

...but, before you expect other people to 'accept you for what you are' first YOU must accept yourself...

...so many of those who sit in judgment of others because of their position in organized religion have yet to accept themselves for who and for what they are and they wrestle daily with their feelings and urges.

Because others look up to them when they enevitably fall, they damage the body of Christ because they held themselves up to standards that they coud not maintain and sinned when they thought that nbody was looking.

According to the Epistle to the Romans (paraphrased) all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

In short...

There is so much good in the worst of us,

and so much bad in the best of us...

that it hardly behoves ANY of us...

TO TALK ABOUT THE REST OF US...

...and let the Eunuchs say "AMEN"