crankshaft (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:12 pm but, having been there done that (had firearms )for all my life,

got the teeshirt, having repelled borders on a home invasion, if it WASNT for having a firearm probably would not be alive, take it or leave it,

also stumbled into some gangbangers at a mall parkinglot, must have thought I was a easyone with the grandkids along, they found out not to bring a knife to a gun fight,

We have a saying in the sciences: data is not the plural of anecdote. That is to say, the events of your life have absolutely nothing to do with actual probabilities. Just because I happen to know someone who won a $100k lottery, does that mean that winning lotteries like that is normal? Nearly everyone in my family works in healthcare and knows the name of every single and muscle bone in the Human body. So should I assume that EVERYONE knows that stuff too? I've met smokers who are over a century old, and I'm sure you have too -- but do you really believe that those people somehow disprove the correlation between smoking and premature death?

Seriously, nothing makes a person look sillier than when they try to use individual examples to contradict scientifically-proven correlations and trends. And yet it's the only way that Conservatives know how to argue -- completely irrationally and without the tiniest shred of statistical, logical, or scientific evidence.

crankshaft (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:12 pm as for depression, a gun is just a tool, cars, rope, ect work just as well, seen that over my yrs,

And yet people who own cars and ropes are much less likely to actually kill themselves than people who own guns. Gun owners have a much -- MUCH -- higher rate of successful suicide attempts than non-gun-owners. That's just a fact; deal with it. Just because someone could kill themselves by bashing in their head with a bat, that doesn't mean that very many people actually do; it's too difficult and too counter-instinctual. People shoot themselves in the face in enormous numbers though; pulling a tiny little lever on a metal tube isn't counter-instinctual at all. That's why the government makes it so hard to buy sleeping pills -- it's really easy to swallow a whole bunch of pills. Too easy. Yet anyone can buy knives, because it's nearly impossible to deliberately gouge an artery open. Do you understand how this works yet? How REALITY works?

crankshaft (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:12 pm you sound like one of the brady kiddies(sarah bradys handgun control inc) with your quote facts, say what you want, but there are those of us out here that know/are living proof otherwise,

I'm sorry that reality has such a liberal bias. It must be hard living in a world that is so cruel as to contradict your silly beliefs with cold, hard statistics. One person, a hundred people, even ten thousand people, are completely useless for disproving correlations found in studies of hundreds of millions of people and an entire century of violent crimes.

Hey, as long as we're using Republican-style thinking, how about this one -- I happen to know someone who had a family member murdered by a police officer. Therefore, by YOUR logic, EVERYONE has their family members murdered by police officers all the time, and we should all go around shooting cops in self-defense. After all, my friend is PROOF that cops are murderers, and kill more people than they help.

The odds that you would have faced a violent home invader are significantly lower than the odds that you would have at some point become sufficiently angry or unbalanced to commit murder. And that's just a fact. What actually happened is irrelevant, because for every person like you with a story about how their gun saved their life, there are fifty more with a story about how someone they love is dead as a result of gun violence, and another hundred who are simply dead and will never get to tell their story at all.

Ok. This is one of those subjects that can go on ad infinitum with no resolution with one party being unable to sway the other.

The basis of freedom is that we don't have to justify why we have something or should have something. We automatically have the right and that is something the government cannot take away; unless it is by small degrees like boiling a frog in water.

Why should someone have an AK-47 when they don't have a need for one? Well, why should anyone have a car that can exceed the speed limit when they don't need one? Do we want to place ourselves in a position where we have to justify everything?

When we do that then we are slaves and shame on anyone that submits to the yoke! I hate cute catch phrases but here is one that is appropriate: Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who dont.

I have owned sever AKs and M-16s and other automatic rifles over the years but now own none. The reason is that I have never been a big fan of auto-loaders (a personal taste and not a comment on automatic rifles). My rifle of choice is the .45-70 and I own several. When I tag someon....um... something with one of those, it stays down.

People that are against gun control should put themselves in this scenario: It's 2:00 in the morning and a crackhead is smashing down their door with an axe. Would you rather live next door to a pacifist or to someone that is prepared to defend themselves and their neighbors?

If people are anti-gun then they should wear a hat that proclaims so and advertise with a sign on their house that there no guns on the premises. Innumerable burglaries are prevented just because of the possibility of a gun on the premises.

I won't go into the recent killings at a church that were brought to a halt because a guard pumped a couple of bullets into the bastard. Although the gunman killed himself with a shot to the head, the murder spree was brought to an end because a person with a carry permit put a couple of rounds into the little bastard. How many more would have been killed had it not been so?

When the Los Angeles riots broke out the stores that weren't looted and robbed were protected by owners that had guns. When New Orleans was slammed by hurricane Katrina it took less than 24 hours for the city to go to anarchy. In neighboring counties (parishes?) they were hit just as hard and didn't suffer the anarchy because the country folk had guns and weren't going to tolerate mass theft. When Texas got hit the neighborhoods didn suffer the looting and anarchy because the communities were armed, and banded together to keep looters away. Yup, I'm sure it would have all been possible with just a smile and a kind word. Ain't that right Mr. Capone.

Taylor (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:41 pm Innumerable burglaries are prevented just because of the possibility of a gun on the premises.

Proof please.

I have a stone here that keeps tigers away too. My proof is that there are no tigers near my home in Canada.

Taylor (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:41 pm Innumerable burglaries are prevented just because of

BossTamsin (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:50 pm the possibility of a gun on the premises.

Proof please.

I have a stone here that keeps tigers away too. My pro

of is that there are no tigers near my home in Canada.

...er POLICE STATIONS?



OUCH!



Dear Markdf

Please consider that someone may want to pull your chain...not to flush you, either...O.K.?

...it was a JOKE...

A-1 (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:47 pm Dear Markdf

Please consider that someone may want to pull your chain...not to flush you, either...O.K.?

...it was a JOKE...

I'm afraid it's one that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Too many people actually think that way.

By analogy, suppose that I start a thread sarcastically stating that gun owners should be locked up. I'm quite liberal, and there are misguided "liberals" who actually believe in such draconian nonsense, so it's quite likely that people will miss the sarcasm.

Irony only works when the thing you are saying is obviously something that you don't believe.

Like, I think sense the 2ed amendment says we can have guns the liberals response should be that the Government must supply all Americans with at least one rifle and one hand gun for each and every person over age 10. Yes I like it, it works, I am going to apply for three.

Question:

Does this mean I need to start locking my door?

River

markdf (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:45 pm I'm afraid it's one that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Too many people actually think that way.

By analogy, suppose that I start a thread sarcastically stating that gun owners should be locked up. I'm quite liberal, and there are misguided "liberals" who actually believe in such draconian nonsense, so it's quite likely that people will miss the sarcasm.

Irony only works when the thing you are saying is obviously something that you don't believe.

So do you believe that I don't believe it?

Or, do you not believe that I DO believe it?

Tell me this.

If you don't believe that gun owners should have guns, and you believe it, then you don't have a gun. Right?

Of course! Right...

Then, How would YOU propose to lock up the gun owners who DO have guns?

Or, DO you mean WEAPONS?

Here,

This is MY weapon...

This is MY gun...

This is for shooting...

This is for FUN!

Taylor (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:41 pm When New Orleans was slammed by hurricane Katrina it took less than 24 hours for the city to go to anarchy.

I believe the real reason there was such chaos was on account of the unforgivably poor planning by the Federal, State and Local authorities. 6 billion dollars was considered too much to spend on improving the levies in New Orleans but we can spend almost 9 billion every two weeks in Iraq.

Personally, I am very conflicted when it comes to the issue of gun control, and I don't want to take weapons away from responsible law abiding citizens, but I would like very much to keep them out of the hands of people who shoot up churches and malls. Sadly it is hard to know in advance who is going to snap ahead of time.

On the other hand I also am conflicted about automobiles. I think as many people in the US are killed each year in alcohol related traffic accidents as gun related violence in this country. We went to war after nearly 3,000 people killed on 9/11... but we lose about 20 times that many people each year from alcohol and gun violence.

Human nature will never allow a Utopia to exist. As long as there are humans, there will be those who will prey on their fellows.

Sigh...now i'm depressed. Sometimes I weep at the human condition

I have a very good friend who lives in Florida and in particular close to Miami. He is (was) beyond anti Guns. He felt that the presence of them was pure evil and anyone advocating them being around was bad or insane. So... They passed the carry law in Florida and he admits to being wrong. He said the perception that any old lady in the street 'might' be packing a pistol brought the crime rate down. And that crime against tourists (Those now being the only people who for SURE were unarmed) went way up.

Human nature is closer to "animal" for criminals and animals don't like getting shot so....

I'm not a NRA gun crazed person. I've learned firearms from them. I've even taken an instructor class but I'm not "political" at least not now. I do understand that the purpose of the Police is almost always to solve crimes. Not to prevent them. And while a rock or a baseball bat might be of value against a drugged up fool kicking in my window I perfer "odds" and as someone else said I pity the fool who brings a knife to a gun fight. Will I run and hide? Sure but try to dig me out and you WILL eat lead...

I adore our friends in Canada and the UK who think its possible to outlaw gun crimes by passing gun ban laws. You clearly think people are better then they are in reality and after spending some time with you folks I almost believe it... However the last time I was in Toronto the papers had a long list of shoot outs so all I can say is that it works as well as our 'ban' in NYC and Washington DC.... And btw saying that its all "Illegal guns from the US?" Well... If it ain't gonna work it ain't gonna work.

BTW they tried to pass laws against some sorts of 'tools' in DC because gang members were using sharpened screwdrivers to kill people. When I heard that my opinion changed. How much would have to be banned to make everyone safe from people who want to kill?