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A-1

Again we have a Conservatrive saying "If you don't do what I say then tke the consequences." Always retailiation if you exercise your right to free speech. Bush telling France to take teh "soonsequences" for their actions. You telling Americans who have their own opinion to take the consequences. Is there punishmen for exercising one's COnstittutional rights?

I lived in NEw York not 10 blocks from the World T4rade C enter. I still can't force myself to think of my New orkers jumping out of hte building to take the lesser death because of the terrorists.

What the hell, A1 does that have to do with shutting up? You lay out your extensive opinions and then tell everyone else to shuit up. Why do you have a greater right to rant on and on and then tell everyone else to shut up?

It is good that we wiped out Saddam, but there is something else going in here in the US that needs to be confronted and tehat is WHY Bush decided Saddam was the one to go after. We have his freinds lined up to make money. Why should AMerican men adn women sacrifice their lives so his rich freinds can get richer?

He already has been giving them rights to ruin national wildlife area to "develop" and make priofits from.

Why is he so against money for education here and health care here when he is so lavish with handing out billions to Iraq and Afghanistan? We have to tighten out belts then suddenly the billions appear magically when he wants it to. Doesn't sound like something we should shut up about.

But OH! let me not make you uncomfortable with my opinion, oh greater than I! Let me shut up or you and your right wing friends might retaliate!

Baby, you just laid out tons of words telling other people to shut up.

So if I have to shut up, you do too.

But before I do, Mr. A1, what consequences do you think you'd get from the Repuclican PArty if they found you were a member of this particular web site?

Also what draft dodgers are you laking about? We donm't have a draft here in the US.

And why do you get sick and tired of Tim Robbins saying his kid is being harrassed because of his father expressing an opinion? Do you think that's fair? Whyh do you get sick and tired of something that happened once? What is the point of going to war to protect Iraqis freedom if we can't have it here? I get sick and tired of people saying we are fighting for freedom but don't you dare live as if you are free.

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:08 pm What was done in Iraq had to be done sooner or later because the U.S. was not R-E-S-P-E-C-T-E-D.

It is a given that without exception ALL the democratic governments have ALWAYS respected and admired the USA as the leader of the democratic world. America did not have to do anything drastic in order to earn that respect. America since the two world wars in the last century, had consistantly worked on a colaborative (win – win) basis with the other major democracies. Now that respect has become tarnished precisely because of the USA’s UNILATERAL invasion of Iraq in the face of strong opposition from the other major democracies such as France, Germany and Russia (I won’t include China, it being a one party state, and as such is not a democracy). and also because of the perceived inconsistency in the American government’s foreign policy. Democracy? (Why not impose it on Cuba, right on America’s doorstep?)

A1 has already, (see above), resigned himself to the fact that Saddam will probably be supplanted by an Islamic theocracy. Recent news reports seem to support this view. The Iraqis are already beginning to show MAJORITY (DEMOCRATIC?) renewed vigor for their religeon and their religeous leaders. They are beginning to look upon the USA occupation as odious at that of Saddam. (Maybe I am looking at the wrong News Stations). With the religeous fanatism re-awakening in Iraq, who knows, (speculation on my part) if another Ayatolla Khomeni will not arise from their midst, this time with majority (democratic?) support?

The basis of any democracy is “The Rule of Law”. In law, judgement is passed on the guilty party on the basis of PROVEN guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. The USA government found the Iraqi government GUILTY of harbouring weapons of mass destruction and also of being a threat to their national security (involvement in the twin tower debacle, and terrorism in the USA. How Britain was threatened in any way, puzzles me). Hence their decision to pass sentence in the form of the invasion. The FACTS! No weapons of mass destruction were found. NO PROOF of connection between the Iraqi government and the Al Quida terrorist movement.

On the other hand – the United Nations Security Council (which included democracies such as France) also worked from the premise that Iraq was harbouring weapons of mass destruction, and that it had connections with Al Quiada. The difference between the USA and the United Nations Security Council was that the United Nations Security Council wanted absolute proof first, hence their weapons inspectors. Had the UN premise been proven correct, they would have (including France), had no option, but to invade Iraq, with the obvious choice of the USA leading such invasion. This would have given legitimacy to such invasion, the cost thereof being funded by the UN, and with no division between the democracies as is currently the case. That Iraq was not a democracy was never the issue here. There are innumerable tyrants ruling numerous countries with records of horrific violations of human rights. Yet these self same countries are not threatened by the USA (Zimbabwe a typical example). Yes, by all means, apply sanctions to put pressure on such countries, which in turn puts pressure on the populace in their suffering to overthrow their own tyrants. International sanctions was successfully applied against South Africa, the aftermath being a true democracy.

Now the USA is perceived by many as having the proverbial egg on her face, and the USA tax payer sitting with a gigantic bill (not funded or shared by the UN), being the cost of the war, and the impending cost of reconstruction of the country, not to mention the beautiful virile young lives sacrificed, some by friendly fire, for WHAT?

Yes, the horrors that existed under Saddam were worth stopping, but that was hardly the reason Bush made such a war -- without even the consent of Congress, which shows a frightening situation here, that he could do what he wants without anyhone stopping him. Kind of makes him a tyrant.

But the same atrocities exist inSouth America, in most Muslim run countries, and no one cares.

We have had castro sitting there since 1959 and no one has tried to oust him. Obviously we can since he is even weaker than Saddam. So why not send some troops there to take over the ocuntry, like some old Roman general looking for loot? The reason is that Cuba has nothing economically that we need. Sugar and cigars don't cut it.

Oil cuts it.

Now there has never been a democratic mind set in any of the Arabic countries. They don't even care about it. They like despots. They prefer benevolent ones, but they don't care about democracy. They are Muslims first. They live in the expectation of heaven. they live by fatalism and predestination. Theyh don't care about tghe fact that our soldiers left their homes and families ot get rid of Saddam for them. they already have new Saddam-imitators cropping up to take over. It is horrible what they suffered, but it will happen again because it is how they think.

Remember there was never any kind of sect that cropped up to oust Saddam from Iraq. Not even the powerful Shiites who make up 60% of the Iraqis launched any kind of opposition. they sat and took it.

I have to go. But thanks for lsitening.

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:08 pm I just get sick and tired of people like actor Tim Robbins getting on television on C-SPAN and ranting about how his kid is being persecuted because of his father's views. He should have considered the consequences of his actions before he put himself and his family in the Limelight. He knew how pissed off the average American is about the circumstances of the last several years....

...And the Dixie Chicks. Oh my God! Why in the world if you made a living selling records to the American public would you say something that was going to piss off 70% of them? Then, all 3 of them pose naked on the front of Entertainment magazine.

I hate to say it, A-1, but I think your effort is futile. You're not going to convince them. You see, there are two kinds of people in the world: those who see human nature for what it is and seek ways to make it work for us (or at least not damage us too much), and those who see human nature for what they would like it to be, and either seek ways to make people conform to their ideal, or else become frustrated that they do not. You and I number among the former, while your detractors apparently number among the latter. (This philosophical difference, when carried to its logical conclusion, is ultimately what distinguishes a capitalist from a socialist.)

Anyway, you can talk 'til you're blue in the face about how actions have consequences, but it will do no good unless the person is disposed to see it that way. If I were to call my boss an asshole to his face, I would most likely pay the consequences of that come my next review. But for every one of us whose reaction to my act is "What's the matter with you, are you stupid?", there's someone else out there whose reaction is going to be "That bastard! He's unfairly punishing you merely for expressing an opinion!" That is unlikely to end in our lifetime -- or even in our great-grandchildren's, for that matter.

In the case of Robbins and The Dixie Chicks, it's easily as obvious as my example above. Ultimately, both of them work for the public, the masses whose opinions they apparently view with such contempt. They are, in effect, telling the 70% of the public that approves of America's actions that they're assholes, yet they want to hide behind some idiotic notion of "free speech" when their "employers" decide such comments are inappropriate coming from someone whose lavish paycheck they're paying to write.

Seems to me the only thing wrong here is the notion that the rules that apply to all of us should somehow change for the entertainment elite.

"That idiotic notion like free speech," Huh?

Guess I don't need to prove my case with you. You'll do it yourself.

You'll gladly live without freedom as long as you suck up to the boss and get a paycheck. This is how tyrants get in power.

Your god is money.

First, you need to go here and listen to Tim Robbin's comments and address delivered to the National Press Club at this site...

Tim Robbins' address at the National Press Club... (http://www.c-span.org/)

Then, click on ......MOST WATCHED VIDEO

Press Club Address by

Actor/Director Tim Robbins

(04/15/2003)

Then you can decide for yourselves what he said. Yankee Masha, you sound just like Robbins on a lot of points. Go listen to him. You may learn some good arguments from these anti-war activists.

Myself, I think that Robbins was fucked. But I understand why. He seems to be paranoid about the situation that he sat himself up for. Clearly, G.W. BUSH only has the power that we give to him. Robbins has put him on a cloud with GOD with delusions of McCarthyish horror.

<<WARNING>>

This address is about an hour long so you may not want to download it if you do not have the hardrive space. You can stream it instead but that is miserable on a 56 k modem. But it certainly is worth watching, whether or not you agree with Mr. Robbins. BTW, Tim Robbins I best remember for his starring role in Shawshank Redemption.

Then, if you should so care to, go to this site and read a couple of columns of Kathleen Parker by clicking on the links.

Link 1 (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opi ... 150.column)

Link 2 (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opi ... 406.column)

I pretty much agree with Ms. Parker. In her, I imagine are beauty and brains in the same package.

As you have both mentioned this "living free" is not a new concept. It has nothing to do with living free, however, it has to do with accepting the consequences of your actions...as you mentioned, this public opinion and what I would like to call "situational martyrdom" is something that we all have to deal with. It does not matter who we are and what our political affiliations are. Now this does not make what happens right. It merely means that if you set yourself up as a martyr you should expect no less than martyrdom.

Nobody can tell us more about putting yourself in harm's way because of you beliefs than the Palestinians. Except maybe some dead Iraqui Kurds. As I mentioned we do all they same things they do albeit on a much less grand scale. The thing is, there are people in America who are just as devout in their Patriot beliefs as fundamentalist Muslims are in theirs. I am telling you that I am among those.

It is interesting that you would react to the videos that I had you go to in the manner that you did. Most Americans are not ignorant to world opinion. I see the humor in world situations. Certainly, there is no humor in dying or war, but looking at a video like that is instructive of the anger and frustration that is being experienced by a certain number of people now.

I do not consider myself a staunch conservative. But you can if you wish. I would like to say that the majority of Americans share most of the feelings that I have expressed here.

The thing is, I come here to a very Liberal site because enjoy the company and the views expressed. What has impressed me the most is that all viewpoints are represented here. That, my friends, is very curious indeed. I do not fear conservative boogey men coming here and "outing" me. Hell, I have nothing to hide.

I have even considered meeting Paolo for coffee sometime because I probably only live an hour or so's drive from him.

Maybe someday we will be able to do that, Paolo.

I really believe that I have played a key role in keeping this site from going the direction of Pleades, the feminist website, that banned men basically because Bod-Mod-Todd started corresponding with them. They ended up being set up and then shut down. I tried to warn them, but you see, they did not listen.

So I will continue to express my views, however, remember, they are mine and they are not shared by everyone but instead with everyone.

I imagine that Iraq will have a Islamic government much in the same way that the U.S. has a Christian government. Call it what you will but the Iraqi people will also end up with the right to be Gay, too. That, they do not have now. Women in Iraq will end up with rights that they have never had. Islam will not be the true government in Iraq. It will instead be the religion. Iran will not end up controlling the type of government in Iraq. So call that whatever you please.

You are not expected to agree with me. It is O.K. I am not going to get mad. So keep on going with whatever you need to say. I need to hear your opinions.

The question...

yankee masha (imported) wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:08 am It is good that we wiped out Saddam, but there is something else going in here in the U.

S. that needs to be confronted and t

yankee masha (imported) wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:08 am hat is WHY Bush decided Saddam was the one to go after. We have his fr

iends lined up to make money.

Your opinion. I suppose.

Note that Saddam was...

1. Harboring Terrorists.

2. In violation of U.N. demands

3. Guilty of mass murder of his own people

4. Al-Quaida became empowered by our inaction.

(OOPS! there went my Political Correctness again, well, fuck me!

There. Now you do not have to say it.)

Got to go now, guys. Please look at the stuff that I gave you. Strengthen your arguments. We shall continue this debate, Paolo permitting.

The thing is, both sides have good points, but Bush is right on this one. Common ground is to the right of Mr. Robbins. Quite a bit Right of him.

My opinion, and as you say, I am entitled.

Wanna know something else...America is cleaning up the Middle East. There is little that anyone will do that will stop G.W. Bush. This bunch wanted a fight, well, now they got it. They wanted martyrdom, well they got it. If they do not clean up their act quickly, they are at risk.

This is NOT Vietnam. There is not a balance here. There is no Russian superpower to check this thing. China is not going to do anything but keep North Korea in line. I am pretty sure that nobody will bother North Korea if they do not attack America.

We have been attacked by terrorists form the Middle East with no clear country. Any country that has anything to do with these terrorist organizations is in serious trouble.

A-1

Well now you sound more like a person. I remember Vietnam and the way it tore us all apart, then we walked out on it. But that is just completely different than this.

I am not interested in convincing you of anything, just that no one tells me I am not allowed to speak because it doesn't fit in. If words are that powerful, why do we need bombs?

The middle east thing has been going on for 5,000 years. if it can finally be ended, then let it. You can't reason with them. As for conservatigve and libveral, I don't identify myself by political idealogy. If I agree with Bush then I'll say so, if I don't i'll say so. My words aren't going to be listened to by him anyway. What bothers me about him is just that. he acts like a dictator.

The problem is as you said the terrorists. not the countries. The terrorists. With box cutters and no weapons they invaded and bvrought down the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and almost the President. No one in his right mind would say they shouldn't be wiped out. We have no choice.

That has not been the issue I've been ranting about. it is the issue of continuing to observe our personal rights. When someone trashes someone for speaking his own mind then that is bull. I think we have made a good progress in wiping out terrorists here and abroad. They have to be wiped out. They want to cast us back to the stone age. We have been progressing in our world and especially in our nation towards a shining magnificent future, then out of nowhere, these weird arabs, who are still wearing the same clothes they wore 3,000 years ago (And US amde rolex watches) decide to destroy it.

Well of course they have to be killed and exterminated. Them or us. What should we do? let them continue to wreck our lives? No.

But let's not lose our own freedom along the way. What you might consider is that people like Robbins might be as courageous to risk his career to keep freedom alive by exercising it, even if he loses money. But there is no defense for saying kids have a right to trash his kids because he is exercising his rights.

Well I don't know how old you are, but I have seen this whole scenario acted out in wartime four times now.

You are a sincere dude, and it has been joyous fencing with you because you don't back down and you make good marks.

If we continue on this theme please bear in mind that I respect your and your opinions and your right to express them. Boxers don't become enemies because they punch each other in the ring. Disagreement does not mean disrespect. Yin and yang...balance.

Now if you would like can we switch the theme back to cocks and balls and their effect on our thinking?

..ah...not quite yet.

First of all, this is what we should all fear. This was recited by J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Nuclear Physicist who organized the Manhattan Project that made the first atom bomb, sometime between the development of the first atom bomb and the decision to use it on Japan...

"If the radiance of a thousand suns

Were to burst at once into the sky

That would be like the splendor of the Mighty one --

I am become Death, The shatterer of Worlds."

-Hindu Spiritual, Bhagavad Gita

Now I need to rant a little about the Patriot Act. Then I will stop. It is the one thing that I will agree with Mr. Robbins about in a heartbeat.

First of all, I think that this little piece of legislation sets a very dangerous precident. The saving grace that will keep the dogs at bay is the recent Supreme Court ruling that reversed a decision of a lower court that convicted a group of anti-abortion activists under the RICO statutes.

If they should try to use the Patriot Act in the same manner I believe that it will be struck down by the Supreme Court.

But if you are not afraid over this Patriot Act then think about these historic quotes...

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil was for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke British statesman

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are a gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever." --Thomas Jefferson, inscription on the Jefferson Memorial

"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Senator Daniel Webster 3 June 1834

"Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster and what has happened once in 6,000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail, there will be anarchy throughout the world." --Daniel Webster, 1851

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

—John F. Kennedy, 1962

Commencement address at Yale University

And finally, everyone's favorite regarding the Patriot Act...

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

We need to kick some major ass in the Middle East but I fear that someone has thrown the baby out with the bath water...

AFTER THIS IS ALL OVER THAT GOD-DAMMED PATRIOT ACT HAS GOT TO GO!!! A-1, April, 2003

I'm done now. Thank each and every one of you.



A-1

So you see. It was worthwile having had all the above discussion between hardliners, having diametrically opposing viewpoints without any of the parties being shut down, censored or kicked off the Board (that is the basis of Democracy).

Again the Thesis and the Anti-Thesis resulting in Synthesis. The strong differences of opinion, at times heated, between A1 and Yankee Masha (Thesis and Anti-thesis) having resulted in Synthesis, whereby, respect between them is cemented, each acknowleging by inference that the other has the right to disagree, and in the process, and whether either will agree with me or not, something of the other party has rubbed off on each one of them (and also on myself, and the other readers), and will have influence on everyone’s future thinking.

All this while, Studlover who started this thread has been quiet. How about giving us a finale