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Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 1:39 pm
by WheelyCurious
Nathan74 (imported) wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:01 pm I'm getting my orchie in 8 days and I'm starting on a low dose of estradiol valerate. My starting dose is 1mg, how much testosterone are you adding in? There's not much info available that I could find on an estrogen dominant slow or no feminization mix. I have to wait 2-3 more months before I see an endocrinologist who specializes in trans and non binary care. I'm medicating myself with E as I go off of T while I'm waiting. I was considering staying on a tiny injectable dose of T for a while along with the E to avoid a crash.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, ORAL Estrogen has some risk of liver damage, it is far better to use patches or injected estrogen. This is safer, and also needs a MUCH lower dose to get the same benefits...

I have not heard of anyone actually doing both E and T at the same time, though it seems to get asked about a lot. My TG doc / endocrinologist thought it was a BAD idea when I asked her about it, basically she said you got the medical risk of both, and no real benefit over one or the other.

FWIW, I'm currently on a 0.15 mg/day estradiol patch routine (Note that this is 1/10th the 1-2mg / day dose suggested for oral E) and have done 0.1 - 0.2 mg / day with the dose being changed according to my E level in blood testing....

My boobs have gotten visibly bigger, but not to the point that they show significantly when I'm dressed. Otherwise no obvious feminizing.

WheelyCurious

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:13 am
by TooMuchT (imported)
Just to add some data to this thread, here is a table from transfemscience that compares equivalent doses for the different forms of estradiol applications (ie oral vs gel vs patch vs injections).

https://transfemscience.org/articles/e2 ... ol-dosages

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:36 pm
by JessicaH (imported)
If you aren’t being monitored by a Dr., I’d suggest starting at 2mg daily. If you start experiencing unwanted signs of feminization, cut back to 1mg. It’s a slow process and you aren’t going to get irreversible changes in a short period of time. For bone health make sure you are taking D3 and vitamin k2

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:48 am
by JustMe (imported)
I have been applying testogel 50mg, on a daily basis for two months now. Had a bloodtest last week, proving my T level was 20.1nmol and free T 0.59nmol, according to my endocrinologist the level is perfect, free T is borderline high though and mustn’t be higher.

Anyways the level i was at was too high for my taste, and I plan on lowering it to half, by splitting my daily dose in half, but that I haven’t discussed with my doc.

Reason for my past sense writing is that I have my first day today from T to lower my level will also be off tomorrow, and from there on apply only 25mg. Testogel on a daily basis.

My reason is I was beginning to feel the effect of “high testosterone” and there was a reason I sought castration after all, to be free from a too high libido.

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:22 pm
by Nathan74 (imported)
4everLimp (imported) wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:21 pm Why can't anyone on this site answer the question I have posted several times and in several different threads? What is is low dose orally taken estrogen that will protect bone health with minimal feminization? I've asked on several threads, posts, replies, and different forums. Is .5mg enough? 1mg? Everyone seems to tip toe around it. Someone has to have experienced this. Please! I am struggling to find an answer.

This is obviously a late answer. 1mg of estradiol Valerate, or .0625mg of premarin is considered low dose E for eunuchs. I did 1mg of estradiol valerate after my castration for a month as a test run. I loved the short term effects and I went off of it for personal reasons at the time. I'm back on TRT but I like low dose E much better, and I will eventually go back on it and stay on it. Getting an appointment with a local doctor that specializes in trans and eunuch care is a very time consuming issue. When I go back on E I prefer to have regular lab work and a doctor monitor me.

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:48 am
by attistoC (imported)
Here are some valuable insights for that:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2813000322

For my part, I have no T compensation. I take 1.5 mg of estradiol 5 days a week, with 2 days off. That worked.

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:51 pm
by WheelyCurious
attistoC (imported) wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:48 am Here are some valuable insights for that:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2813000322

For my part, I have no T compensation. I take 1.5 mg of estradiol 5 days a week, with 2 days off. That worked.

Interesting paper.... One thing that I had not heard of before (and prescribing Dr.'s didn't tell me about) was the following line:

However, other agents including high-dose estrogen (E), high-dose ketoconazole, abiraterone, and LHRH antagonists can also be used to achieve a castrate level of testosterone. (bold added)

They don't seem to define what constitutes high dose ketoconazole, and it may be that it is far more than typically used, but I was started on a ketoconazole ointment back when I was in rehab because one of the doctors didn't like the mild irritation I had on my face, and especially my nose, and have been using it ever since. They want me to use it twice a day, I actually only use it once, so less of a dose than prescribed, but...

My GF was also prescribed it for a yeast infection resulting from moisture under her (VERY large) breasts, and I've gotten the impression that it is one of the standard 'go-to' drugs for skin rashes in general (they also make ketoconazole shampoos, as I've been prescribed those as well on occasion)

Makes one wonder....

Looking further - lots of stuff on some of the more reputable drug info sites including interactions w/ other prescription meds that I'm on, or have been on... (I get all my prescriptions filled at the same CVS store, so supposedly they would spot any bad interactions, which hasn't happened) However some are not clear about whether they are talking about the topical or pill forms... However they did mention 'reduced sexual ability' and breast enlargement in males among the side effects.... (NOTE - They also listed high risk of liver damage, and other problems, so ketoconazole should NOT go on the unofficial list of chem castration drugs...)

Wikipedia says high dose for treatment of PCa was >800mg / day, and that these days it is pretty much discouraged as there are better options... It also says the topical formulations haven't been associated w/ most of the nasty stuff, so probably not a big concern....

I haven't tried to chase them, but some of the articles listed in the References and Cited sections also seemed like they might be sort of relevant...

WheelyCurious

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:01 pm
by justine77 (imported)
I go with what JessicaH says. I tried T cypionate injections for a while post-op but later switched to estradiol. I was a lot better on estradiol, better mood, good in the gym and more comfortable all round. I used Estraderm 100 patches, feminisation was slow but permanent, which for me was what I wanted.

Justine xx

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:07 pm
by sftineun (imported)
Gelded (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:12 am But it seems to me, and I will ask my endocrinologist, that there are treatments without hormones to protect against osteoporosis.
I have been a chemical eunuch since 2009. For quite a few years, I went with no hormones at all. My libido went down so much that I only needed release about once in 3-4 months. However, fully 10 years later, in 2019, I convinced my doctor to order a bone density scan and sure enough I have developed osteopenia (a precursor of osteoporosis). Since then I was prescribed both testosterone gel and Fosamax, which directly slows/stops further deterioration of osteopenia.

I did not like all the side effects of the return of T. I stopped T for a while and tried Estrogen gel. It was giving me similar level of libido.

As for your question of non-hormonal treatment of osteoporosis, these drugs have a lot of severe side effects on their own. And their useful life is about 5 years, after which their risks far outweigh the benefits. They can cause sudden fracture of the femur, the thigh bone. And they can cause osteonecrosis of the jaw, which is death of the jaw bone after any significant tooth procedure for something as simple as a tooth extraction. (As my mother had to get a badly decayed tooth, but she had been on Fosamax and then other similar drugs, the surgeon was reluctant to extract the tooth. Luckily, there was an easy workaround for her. But evidently, it is a frequent and serious enough risk that there is a department for these conditions within Stanford Health. As such, I went through a crash course on the risks of these osteoporosis treatments.)

In short, osteoporosis medications ARE NOT for preventive use, because they have serious and dangerous side effects and have limited useful life for each of them. They should be kept for when we really need to treat osteoporosis (and not really appropriate for osteopenia either).

Fosamax, in particular, as in any oral medications, have a long half life of something like 10 years. In other words, the dangerous side effects stay with us even after we stopped the medication for decades.

My doctors persuaded me take a "holiday" on Fosamax and just rely on my testosterone gel.

And here is the answer to the question from @4everLimp about what is the lowest dose to maintain bone health without feminization if taking estrogen, and return of strong libido if taking testosterone.

Every person's mileage differs. The way I figured that out for myself was by working closely with understanding doctors. I reduced my testosterone to a comfortable level libido wise. And I kept on checking my testosterone levels in my blood. I maintained the lower level within the acceptable range. And I kept getting bone density scans annually to confirm that my osteopenia has stabilized (actually improved a bit). (Although most insurance covers these scans only every 2 years, my doctor was able to convince them to approve annual scans if actively treating osteoporosis.)

Both my PCP and endocrinologist cannot tell me what that magic "lowest dose" is for me. We have to do trial and error and constant monitoring to find that for me.

Hope this is helpful to your consideration.

Re: Which post castration treatment is the best?

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:16 pm
by WheelyCurious
As usual for what it's worth, and my case is very different because of my disability... Several years back (long before learning that this was even an option) my then endocrinologist talked me into starting on one of the oral bone meds, I forget which one. After a few weeks I started noticing considerable pain in my thumb joints, especially when using tools...

I asked the pharmacist at my local CVS if there was anything I was taking that could account for this, and she said it was a "known side effect" of the bone med... I stopped it and considerably annoyed my endocrinologist when I said that I really didn't want to consider any of the alternatives, especially the long lasting injections since they were not reversible - no antidote and they can't take it back out...

For me, I found that there is actually very little evidence of their doing much for bone loss due to SCI, and even for other patient classes the actual evidence was not all that strong in studies done by researchers other than the drug manufacturers (Hmmm....)

I would agree w/ sftineun that these drugs seem more than a little problematic and that it may be wise to avoid them if at all possible... I know I'm not going to go on them again based on my experience.

WheelyCurious