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Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:31 pm
by moi621 (imported)
Riverwind (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:42 pm Tomorrow the Supreme Court will hear final arguments on Marriage equality. Lets hope they get it right.

When DOMA ended a couple years ago I thought this day would be about 10 years off, boy was I wrong and glad of it. The latest polls say 6 in 10 Americans agree with Gay Marriage. This is a good thing something and something that is long over due.

RiverLava

NOTE: the political section is dead however there are a couple topics that are of public interest, this is one of them.

Could Senator Rand Paul, M.D. also be one of those public interest topics?

No ?

Oh I see how it works :D

Moi 🚬

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:13 pm
by Losethem (imported)
The federal government regulated marriage with the Utah admission to the union. Very simple. Still, let's throw that out.

Now let's talk about equal protection of the laws. If a decision comes down that states the 4 states are correct, then how is it equal protection of the law if any one of those states dissolve a California marriage for a straight couple, but not for a gay couple? Both couples have identical marriage licenses. So that creates a system where you have a state picking and choosing which marriage licenses they will dissolve from other states, within the borders of the state that doesn't recognize.

That's fundamental discrimination, and is disallowed under the 14th amendment as it basically creates a, "some animals are more equal than others" scenario.

--LT

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:00 pm
by Dave (imported)
Losethem (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:13 pm The federal government regulated marriage with the Utah admission to the union. Very simple. Still, let's throw that out.

That's true, but not quite the reason.

The Federal Government regulated the marriage rules of Utah because Utah wanted polygamy. That was not compatible in any way with any other state. Every other state at the time restricted who could marry by age and by closeness of relative. Some states forbid first cousins. Some states added stepchildren. Some states did second cousins. Some states did only direct descendants and not in-laws. All the other states forbid polygamy.

The LAW does not tolerate that type of uncertainty, so Utah lost out and the first Federal regulation of marriage became the law of the land.

Added: the Federal courts want the states to define marriage but they understand that (at least on this issue) there cannot be versions of same-sex marriage and same-sex civil unions. Way too confusing.

Nor can a married couple lose their rights when they travel. (that's the recognition question)

You can find most of this on SCOTUSBLOG. They do a good job of explaining the legal issues.

fixed: Utah for Arizona. Why did I make that mistake -- because I'm tired, slightly blurry eyed, and trying to be a short as possible. This isn't easy law to describe.

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:26 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
Oh, now I get it.

LOL as I have been reading this thread, I actually thought of you and wondered when and if you would chime in. Thanks, I was not disappointed.

Yes we did get rid of the political section and for good reason however in doing so at that time there were a couple of topics that we decided to allow, this is one of them. The reason it was allowed is because it does relate to the overall message and mission of this site. So its a lot like English with all its rules, like I before E except after C except of course if the word is something like Foreign then you have the exception to the exception. I do hope this cleared that up.

River

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:36 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:31 pm Could Senator Rand Paul, M.D. also be one of those public interest topics?

No ?

Oh I see how it works :D

Moi 🚬

I don't know or should I say remember the few topics that we would allow, sense your a movie buff, in the word of Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky?"

remember if your wrong, your gone.

River

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:46 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
I am delighted that this thread has had so much action in one day, over 24 posts so I guess I will weigh in on the issue.

Should a business be allowed to stop service because of religious beliefs?

NO, if you are open to the public for business then you take the good with the bad. This is not to say that a business can't say you must ware shirt or shoes, those are conditions of service.

The bottom line here is that marriage equality is a fact, its happening way faster then expected, I think the Court will rule in favor of Marriage equality and it will be a done deal and forgotten all together within a few years. There will of course be those that will never come around but they will be in the minority, which will be good for them to know what its like to be on the outside looking in.

Equality in all things,

River

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:41 am
by jacb1951 (imported)
Riverwind (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:46 pm I am delighted that this thread has had so much action in one day, over 24 posts so I guess I will weigh in on the issue.

Should a business be allowed to stop service because of religious beliefs?

NO, if you are open to the public for business then you take the good with the bad. This is not to say that a business can't say you must ware shirt or shoes, those are conditions of service.

The bottom line here is that marriage equality is a fact, its happening way faster then expected, I think the Court will rule in favor of Marriage equality and it will be a done deal and forgotten all together within a few years. There will of course be those that will never come around but they will be in the minority, which will be good for them to know what its like to be on the outside looking in.

Equality in all things,

River

Am i the only one who sleeps at night ?

OK first off none of these Christians are saying they won't totally serve gays. They are only saying they won't be a part of gay marriage.

They are happy to serve in any other way for gays. In fact most even offered to recommend someone else who would serve the gay marriage.

As for the courts you must not be watching the news.

Lately the Supreme Court has been asking questions like why should they turn over hundreds of years worth of a status quo just because of a 10 year span of gay challenges.

Even a woman raised by two gays spoke out and said its better for children to be raised by both a man and a woman.

Don't get me wrong i'm NOT against gay marriage. I just see it as a more complex issue then just two people wanting to get married.

It does have an impact of kids and people with a strong religious belief. And whether you like it or not they matter too.

As for it going away as an issue after a few years how did that work out for abortion ? Its still a legal issue being fought over.

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:10 am
by Dave (imported)
>>I make the argument that much of the social change and societal unrest in the world is a reaction against Modernity.

>>I have given up hope that people understand that sentence. It is like arguing Camus versus Nietzsche. . .

>>However, that argument has surfaced this week before the Supreme Court.

>>I'm going to copy this article whole and not as bits.

>>This article explains the changes in society that change the circumstances of marriage much better than I can.

>>When the world stood against slavery, stood against the Divine Right of Kings and monarchs, stood for "liberty, equality, fraternity", and move against colonialism, against women as mere chattels of their husbands, then society moved forward and into the modern world.

>>

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/0 ... sentences/

During Tuesday’s marriage equality arguments in the Supreme Court, several of the Court’s conservative members suggested that same-sex couples should not be given equal marriage rights because these couples have not enjoyed those rights for most of the past. As Justice Antonin Scalia summed up this argument, “for millennia, not a single society” supported marriage equality, and that somehow exempted same-sex couples from the Constitution’s promise of equal protection of the law.

Not long after her conservative colleagues raised this argument, however, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg explained exactly why marriage was long understood to be incompatible with homosexuality in just five sentences:

[Same-sex couples] wouldn’t be asking for this relief if the law of marriage was what it was a millennium ago. I mean, it wasn’t possible. Same-sex unions would not have opted into the pattern of marriage, which was a relationship, a dominant and a subordinate relationship. Yes, it was marriage between a man and a woman, but the man decided where the couple would be domiciled; it was her obligation to follow him.

There was a change in the institution of marriage to make it egalitarian when it wasn’t egalitarian. And same-sex unions wouldn’t — wouldn’t fit into what marriage was once.

Justice Ginsburg’s point was that, until surprisingly recently, the legal institution of marriage was defined in terms of gender roles. According to Sir William Blackstone, an eighteenth century English jurist whose works are still frequently cited today to explain the common law principles we inherited from our former colonial rulers, “[t]he very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage, or at least is incorporated and consolidated into that of the husband; under whose wing, protection and cover, she performs everything.” As late as 1887, fully one third of the states did not permit women to control their earnings. And married women could not even withhold consent to sex with their husband until shockingly recently.

Under the common law, “by their mutual matrimonial consent and contract the wife hath given herself up in this kind unto her husband,” and this consent was something “she cannot retract.” The first successful prosecution in the United States of a husband who raped his wife did not occur until the late 1970s.

So American marriage law, and the English law that it was derived from, presumed that the wife was both financially and sexual subservient to the husband. In a world where marriage is defined as a union between a dominant man and a submissive woman, each fulfilling unique gender roles, the case for marriage discrimination is clear. How can both the dominant male role and the submissive female role be carried out in a marital union if the union does not include one man and one woman? This, according to Justice Ginsburg, is why marriage was understood to exclude same-sex couples for so many centuries.

But marriage is no longer bound to antiquated gender roles. And when those gender roles are removed, the case for marriage discrimination breaks down.

End of article

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:46 am
by Riverwind (imported)
jacb1951 (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:41 am Am i the only one who sleeps at night ?

OK first off none of these Christians are saying they won't totally serve gays. They are only saying they won't be a part of gay marriage.

They are happy to serve in any other way for gays. In fact most even offered to recommend someone else who would serve the gay marriage.

As for the courts you must not be watching the news.

Lately the Supreme Court has been asking questions like why should they turn over hundreds of years worth of a status quo just because of a 10 year span of gay challenges.

Even a woman raised by two gays spoke out and said its better for children to be raised by both a man and a woman.

Don't get me wrong i'm NOT against gay marriage. I just see it as a more complex issue then just two people wanting to get married.

It does have an impact of kids and people with a strong religious belief. And whether you like it or not they matter too.

As for it going away as an issue after a few years how did that work out for abortion ? Its still a legal issue being fought over.

But it did work out for interracial marriage, there was a time not so long ago that two people of different races could not be married in some states, mostly in the deep south.

As for this woman you talk about or kids being raised, without them those kids may be raise in foster homes. However I have not seen any report from kids that were not positive.

Gay marriage must happen, its not about kids its about two people that wish the same rights as everybody else,

case in point

My older brother was gay, he was with his partner of over 20 years when he died of cancer at the age of 50. Both Russ and Roger had wills and documents duly recorded as to what happens if one of them died. The undertaker who was there with me and Roger was in fact gay, he turned to me to ask what was to be done with the body. Because the law did not recognize their relationship even with legal documents recorded, sense I was a BLOOD relative I could trump what my brother and partner wanted. This would have never happened if they were married. This if for no other reason is why the law must be changed.

As for people coming around its already happening right before our eyes. Today its 6 in 10 in a couple years it will be 95 out of 100 which is about the best one can hope for, at that time it will become a non issue, watch it happen in the next couple of years.

River

Re: Gay Marriage

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:05 am
by jacb1951 (imported)
Riverwind (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:46 am But it did work out for interracial marriage, there was a time not so long ago that two people of different races could not be married in some states, mostly in the deep south.

As for this woman you talk about or kids being raised, without them those kids may be raise in foster homes. However I have not seen any report from kids that were not positive.

Gay marriage must happen, its not about kids its about two people that wish the same rights as everybody else,

case in point

My older brother was gay, he was with his partner of over 20 years when he died of cancer at the age of 50. Both Russ and Roger had wills and documents duly recorded as to what happens if one of them died. The undertaker who was there with me and Roger was in fact gay, he turned to me to ask what was to be done with the body. Because the law did not recognize their relationship even with legal documents recorded, sense I was a BLOOD relative I could trump what my brother and partner wanted. This would have never happened if they were married. This if for no other reason is why the law must be changed.

As for people coming around its already happening right before our eyes. Today its 6 in 10 in a couple years it will be 95 out of 100 which is about the best one can hope for, at that time it will become a non issue, watch it happen in the next couple of years.

River

when people get mad at what i'm saying they miss my point.

i've said over and over again I'M FOR GAY MARRIAGE

that was never my issue.

i'm more concerned about the blind hatred some gays have towards anyone who dares to question them about any topic.

Such as my concerns about a business run by someone who's faith won't allow them to do a service for a gay wedding.

I can see a back lash coming from that.

BTW having just been an executor of my brother estate ( he owed for more then he had ) i can tell you first hand laws differ greatly between the states on that issue.

for example in IL our dad had he been alive would have had control AND he would get 50% of everything the rest to be divided by remaining family.

and the executor would have control over the funeral. LOL i wouldn't wish that role on anyone having done it three time - WIFE - MOM - BROTHER