OK, that's it...

I’ve been resisting getting involved in a theological conversation that is so incredibly complex as this one. There are far too many factors involved for us to know what these words “really” mean (or meant at the time they were written down).

First of all, the words in Matthew 19:12 were originally written in Greek at least a generation after the conversation that they reputedly record word for word. A conversation that was originally held in Aramaic, a language as different in grammar and vocabulary from Greek as Arabic is from English. The earliest surviving manuscript copy of the original is from three centuries later, having gone through the hands of several different copyists along the way, probably with copyist errors.

Second, there were numerous eunuchs in society at the time of Jesus. He, and his followers, would have had contact with them and would have been very familiar with how they were produced. Tertullian, one of the earliest Christian theologians, in his De Monogamia, even claimed that the author of the Gospel According to Matthew was, himself, a eunuch. If the author of Matthew really was a eunuch, he may have had an incentive to include eunuchs in his text.

Third, there was an important cultural divide between the lands to the east and south of the Bosphorus/Medditerranean divide and those to the west and north of it. Eunuchs were common and frequently in high positions on one side and both rare and despised on the other. Jerusalem was on one side and Rome on the other. Before the spread of Christianity, there were few eunuchs in Greece or Rome. After the spread of Christianity they became far more common to the west. Whether they spread WITH Christianity or only incidentally to the spread of Christianity is not adequately understood. At least one historian (Harper 2011) sees the increase in the number of eunuchs in the west as a direct result of increasing Christianization and the spread of the idea with the faith.

Fourth, there are frequent mentions of early Christian eunuchs and of Christians seeking castration. At least one group of Jesus-followers in the area to the east of Jerusalem believed that, not only should all true Christian males be castrated, but that it was their sacred duty to castrate non-believers (even unwillingly) to save their souls (Amidon 1990). The importance of celibacy in the early church (see, especially, the Pauline Epistles) led to the practice of castration as a way to maintain total chastity. Theophylact, Archbishop of Orchrid and Bulgaria in the early 12th century, even suggested that, while the self-castration by an adult to maintain his chastity was abhorrent, the castration of a boy by his own family for the same purpose could be a respectable Christian act. Self-castration by an adult was seen as taking the easy way out of sexuality.

Fifth, the practice of self-castration to maintain celibacy, despite being condemned by the First Council of Nicea (AD 325), which was dominated by Roman appointees, persisted in the east until much later. Many prominent Eastern Orthodox leaders, including the Patriarch St. Ignatius (c. 797-877), were eunuchs. There were even monasteries reserved for eunuchs. It was rare after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, but castration to maintain celibacy was practiced by Christians sporadically in some regions in the east. The Skoptzy sect of Russian Orthodox Christianity continued to adopt orphan boys in order to castrate them in the name of Christ as late as the beginning of WWII. (Some of our best data on the physiological consequences of prepubertal castration comes from German and Swiss doctors who examined Skoptzy in the 1920s and 30s. Lipschültz (1924), for example, describes the physical examination of a young Skoptzy adult, castrated at age 10, who had an erection during his exam. Evidence that prepubertal castration does NOT prevent some sexual functioning. Aucoin & Wassersug (2006) discuss the sexuality of eunuchs in various times and places.)

Does Matthew 19:12 refer to actual castration, rather than symbolic? Does it refer to simple attempts to maintain chastity? My guess, given the various lines of evidence, is that it refers to the actual surgical removal of testicles, though I’m well aware that some modern theologians dispute that.

REFERENCES:

Amidon, P.R. (1990). The Panarion of St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis. New York: Oxford University Press.

Aucoin, M.W. & R.J. Wassersug (2006). The Sexuality and Social Performance of Androgen-Deprived (Castrated) Men Throughout History: Implications for Modern Day Cancer Patients. Social Science & Medicine 63: 3162-3173.

Harper, K. (2011). Slavery in the Late Roman World, AD 275-425. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Lipschütz, A. (1924). The Internal Secretions of the Sex Glands: The Problem of the “Puberty Gland.” Cambridge: W. Heffer & Sons Ltd.

Reopened at Jesus' request.

Keep it civil.

Thankyou Paulo! The subject of this thread is Matthew 19:12, therefore as a Bible believer, it's hard for me to discuss it except from a perspective of Biblical belief. But i will try to not offend the beliefs of others (it would be nice if also others did thesame! Things like comparing the Holy word of God to a cookbook, or signatures like 'go nuke a gay baby whale for Jesus', is certainly not respecting the beliefs of others either).

My intention to get surgically castrated is actually based on Matthew 19:12. It seems to be averse that no preacher will touch with a barge pole. But i LOVE that verse, and it's given me such hope.

i definately think Matthew 19:12 is speaking about literal castration. Other people can come to their own conclusions.

i was reading about Boston Corbett, who supposedly because of his Christian faith, castrated himself with a pair of rusty scissors to avoid temptation with prostitutes. That probably had something to do with Matthew 19:12.

Among the philosophers, I think Aristotle is the one who had put the most effort into attempting to understand and describe the biological aspects, differences and similarities of what he observed about eunuchs as compared to children, women, and men, and attempted to put it all into perspective. Amazingly he comes close in describing what most of the "ancient" cultures view of eunuchs is. Matthew, of Hebrew Jewish descent having come from an Aramaic background influenced by ancient Assyrian and ancient Greek modalities must have posessed these views too. -In my opinion.

Hi Knightbird111, i couldnt reply to the private message you sent me, because it says you cant receive messages, so i have to answer you here. Yep, i'm a Christian. If you want to stop masturbation, first stopALL porn, and even stop watching things with partial nudity in, like hollywood movies, sexy music videos etc. And just it all settles down. But if you don't stop porn, it's not even possible to stop masturbation! Stop porn, and watch lust settle down.

These following verses are what cured my masturbation addiction literally on the spot. After i read these verses a year ago, i never masturbated again, not once. Because i knew it would be willful sin (you can't accidentally masturbate) and that therefore i could not do it even once for the rest of my life -

Hebrews 10:26-29 (KJV)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So you said about wanting to overcome the sin of masturbation. Well the sin of fornication is ANY sexual activity outside of marriage. So yes, becoming a eunuch is one option. Or you could just get married instead? -

1 Corinthians 7:2 (KJV)

Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

So if you cannot contain your lust, and are constantly burning with lust, marriage is also an option for you, not just becoming a eunuch. Maybe marriage is a better option for you, than becoming a eunuch? Think about it.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 (KJV)

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

lust-ocd (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:53 pm Hi Knightbird111, i couldnt reply to the private message you sent me, because it says you cant receive messages, so i have to answer you here. Yep, i'm a Christian. If you want to stop masturbation, first stopALL porn, and even stop watching things with partial nudity in, like hollywood movies, sexy music videos etc. And just it all settles down. But if you don't stop porn, it's not even possible to stop masturbation! Stop porn, and watch lust settle down.

These following verses are what cured my masturbation addiction literally on the spot. After i read these verses a year ago, i never masturbated again, not once. Because i knew it would be willful sin (you can't accidentally masturbate) and that therefore i could not do it even once for the rest of my life -

Hebrews 10:26-29 (KJV)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So you said about wanting to overcome the sin of masturbation. Well the sin of fornication is ANY sexual activity outside of marriage. So yes, becoming a eunuch is one option. Or you could just get married instead? -

1 Corinthians 7:2 (KJV)

Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

So if you cannot contain your lust, and are constantly burning with lust, marriage is also an option for you, not just becoming a eunuch. Maybe marriage is a better option for you, than becoming a eunuch? Think about it.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 (KJV)

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Jesus wanted this thread kept open? That might be OK, if you shut this guy down.

Just so you know, Knightbird crossed a big red line here and got himself IP banned.

Thanks for your input, though.

Choosing to live "like a eunuch" does not mean you have to be a eunuch.

I still don't think the context of Matthew 19 either condemns or condones

eunuchs, and it certainly doesn't particularly condone castration.

To me it says; If you choose to lead a celibate life that is fine.

And if you don't lead a celibate life then follow the rules.