I guess the question is this, where does justice end and revenge began.

If you want to make an example then its revenge.

River

River , you are wrong! Penn State, a HUGE college system, chose to allow a pedophile to be concealed in their ranks. Had they exposed Sandusky and fired him, it would have been a momentary stink. As it is , covering up his actions and turning a blind eye to the continuation of his heinous acts, has now made it a serious issue. As cainanite said, were I a parent of a college age child I would be discouraging them from attending Penn State.

I do feel for the kids who did nothing wrong who will suffer for the actions of the athletic and PR departments. They can however change schools to get those programs that surely the university will cut as the loss of athletic money starts to unfold.

Here in Maryland if you knowingly allowed a pedophile to use your residence for abusing children, then you are as guilty as they are, and will serve the same time in Jail. If you found out and didn't report it , you are just as culpable. By the actions of the Penn State system, they tacitly said "ok Jerry have at all the kids you want, we don't care, so long as the football program keeps winning" . Therein lies the problem.

You can be sure that the board of regents at every major university in the US, and some abroad are looking very hard at this, and the likelihood of a repeat , thanks to the NCAA is very very remote. No other college will ever want to feel the wrath of the public and the NCAA like Penn State is currently feeling it.

Raymar

I am not a jock and have always distrusted the place of "sports"

in University programs.

The ramifications of the punishment on uninvolved individuals is sad. I would not have the punishment lessened. Maybe increased to cover some of the losses of the nearby community that thrived on an economy bolstered by the football program.

Athletics has just become more and more void of sportsmanship.

A big punishment, if not bigger is called for along with a review of ethical values at all schools' athletic programs to promote sportsmanship and help identify misplaced loyalty.

Moi

Ray,

I didn't aim the comment at you. I wasn't sure if anyone out of state or out of the USA knew just how big Penn State was.

I don't disagree with the NCAA. I would have found fault with the "death penalty" but that is not what the NCAA did. I have heard from these newspaper stories and friends that are Alum of Penn State that the University tried very hard in the past 5 to 10 years to dislodge Paterno and separate the athletic program from the football team from the rest of the university but Paterno wouldn't budge.

Remember that Paterno only left the field coaching day by day when some kid ran over him accidentally. Then he decided to turn over the coaching job to a younger person

BTW - I hear River's POV half the day and the other half of the day, I hear the opposite POV.

BTW - Penn State is not my Alma Mater. I have no allegiance to them being from Pittsburgh and much closer to the University of Pittsburgh and working 9 years with an office in Morgantown and knowing lots of people from WVU. Neither of those two are my Alma Mater, either but I have closer ties to them than Penn State.

It is what it is.

Chickens DO come home to roost.

Beware and be aware of what goes on in your chicken coop.

Riverwind (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:26 pm Your right, I stand corrected, those kids should be punished for years along with the town after all they support this corrupt school it should be torn down to the ground and put in a nice petting zoo in its place.

You did not read my posts on this, should the school be fined, yes, should the kids going to the school be punished NO. This dictator of the NCAA did not punish Penn State he took vengeance.

No on second thought, a Petting ZOO.

River

What kids River? The tiny percentage that might make it to the NFL someday? Penn State is a School, not a minor league for the NFL. Are you saying that all the sudden because of this, someone is not going to get their degree? Because anyone good enough to get a scholarship from Penn State will certainly get one from another school. So who are you talking about? Their hurt feelings because they put football above decency? Because the idolized a man that turned out to be a scumbag? I mean who are you talking about? Who are these kids who are hurt by this?

Elizabeth

Elizabeth (imported) wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:55 pm What kids River? The tiny percentage that might make it to the NFL someday? Penn State is a School, not a minor league for the NFL. Are you saying that all the sudden because of this, someone is not going to get their degree? Because anyone good enough to get a scholarship from Penn State will certainly get one from another school. So who are you talking about? Their hurt feelings because they put football above decency? Because the idolized a man that turned out to be a scumbag? I mean who are you talking about? Who are these kids who are hurt by this?

Elizabeth

I would imagine the kids who enroll at Penn State. It is a publicly funded university. Usually, in-state residents of such institutions pay reduced tuition and fees, thanks to state funding, generous alumni support and profits from the marketing of a corrupt sports system. Without those revenues, the number and scope of in-state scholarships will suffer. Yes, top-notch students can be accepted to other institutions, but very often the financial support available at out-of-state institutions is far less than at in-state public schools. Also, not all programs are equal. Yes, you can take chemistry courses at Harvard, but to tell you the truth, their department sucks, and if you have aspirations of doing tier-one chemistry, there are better schools. Penn State has a number of first-rate programs, and they are now in jeopardy, and going to Princeton, Rutgers, Cornell or some other place across the border isn't really a viable option for a lot of kids, so those are the kids who will be hurt.

Almost all tier-one schools field a sports program that suckers alumni contributions. Oh sure, people mention the Nobel laureates at Berkeley or UCLA, but how many people can name those guys? But man can they tell you who the football coach is. UCLA's library outranks Yale's but most people could not find the buildings without a map, but they sure know where Pauley Pavillion is. When UCLA renovated the bookstore, they closed it down in the middle of the quarter, but even during construction, when you couldn't buy a textbook, they kept the section open to buy Bear Wear to accommodate the hordes of Japanese tourists who come to America just for their UCLA sweatshirts. To pretend that Penn State is an isolated instance is foolish. Out entire culture focuses on grownups participating in children's games. To instill in the general public the notion that "sports builds character" while turning a blind eye to the recruiting violations, steroid uses, the physical risks of high-impact sports, and general sleaze of professional "amateur" athletics is a far greater instance of child abuse than some old fart showering with naked boys.

gareth19 (imported) wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:19 pm I would imagine the kids who enroll at Penn State. It is a publicly funded university. Usually, in-state residents of such institutions pay reduced tuition and fees, thanks to state funding, generous alumni support and profits from the marketing of a corrupt sports system. Without those revenues, the number and scope of in-state scholarships will suffer. Yes, top-notch students can be accepted to other institutions, but very often the financial support available at out-of-state institutions is far less than at in-state public schools. Also, not all programs are equal. Yes, you can take chemistry courses at Harvard, but to tell you the truth, their department sucks, and if you have aspirations of doing tier-one chemistry, there are better schools. Penn State has a number of first-rate programs, and they are now in jeopardy, and going to Princeton, Rutgers, Cornell or some other place across the border isn't really a viable option for a lot of kids, so those are the kids who will be hurt.

Almost all tier-one schools field a sports program that suckers alumni contributions. Oh sure, people mention the Nobel laureates at Berkeley or UCLA, but how many people can name those guys? But man can they tell you who the football coach is. UCLA's library outranks Yale's but most people could not find the buildings without a map, but they sure know where Pauley Pavillion is. When UCLA renovated the bookstore, they closed it down in the middle of the quarter, but even during construction, when you couldn't buy a textbook, they kept the section open to buy Bear Wear to accommodate the hordes of Japanese tourists who come to America just for their UCLA sweatshirts. To pretend that Penn State is an isolated instance is foolish. Out entire culture focuses on grownups participating in children's games. To instill in the general public the notion that "sports builds character" while turning a blind eye to the recruiting violations, steroid uses, the physical risks of high-impact sports, and general sleaze of professional "amateur" athletics is a far greater instance of child abuse than some old fart showering with naked boys.

You make my point for me for most of your post. But you have tried to minimalise what happened. It was not some old fart showering with naked boys. It was a man with a lot of clout and a fake organization to supply himself with kids that he could forcibly sodomize. Is that what you would say if he had raped little girls instead? Would it be an old fart just showing with naked little girls? This man set up a fake charity using his prestige of Penn State to get vulnerable children and rape them. You act as if this is nothing. As if all the kids who got scholarships makes it worth sacrificing a few kids to "old fart".

This is the exact kind of thinking that really troubles me. You have totally minimized what happened to justify a bunch of selfish men who all did the wrong thing and if people are benefiting from it, that is also wrong, not a justification.

Elizabeth

No, I haven't minimized anything. I'm just pointing out that the punishment has collateral effects, and that is the basic problem with the concept of punishment. It tends to increase the misery rather than merely stopping the unwanted behavior. You may recall that this issue was already pointed out by Kant in the Kritik der praktischen Vernunf.

There is something ironic that the three most homophobic, in your face heterosexist groups, the Catholic (and Focus on Family type) churches, the Boy Scouts, and organized athletics are the great producers of homosexual predators. It has been a few years (centuries?) since I was in school, but I still remember the fawning attention, to the point of almost open homoeroticism, the coaches gave to the beautiful, successful athletes, and the way they conspired to humiliate the skinny, glasses wearing, non athletic nerds like me.

I guess that's where the boys are.

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