kristoff wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:49 pm As far as the fiction archive is concerned, there are no plans to destroy it. We simply have to decide in what manner, and what will be allowed. Yes, we may well have to go in and edit out some stories, but that is a painstaking process, never mind reading 11,000 stories (won't happen that way, be assured). We may simply have to take out those with certain tags, ie, minor themed. NO DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE. They will not be for at least another month.

If I am allowed to plead for its existence, I will now.

Please consider not removing ALL minor themed stories. I agree some are more dangerous than others, but not all should be painted with the same brush. Please consider carefully.

I respect what has been done here. I'd hate to see it come undone. I'll post back later when I have more time.

If the registrar actually identified two specific stories, then at least they provided some reason for the confiscation. Usually during something like this, all the website owner is provided is some nebulous complaint with no specifics whatsoever.

FWIW, I recommend a separate password-protected area for the fiction archive. Without registering, no access.

kristoff wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:49 pm The problem was that someone made a complaint to the DNS registrar about child pornography being hosted at Eunuch.org. They were specifically cited two pieces which probably should never have been put up in the first place.

...

We may simply have to take out those with certain tags, ie, minor themed. NO DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE. They will not be for at least another month.

Please kristoff, allow me to plead my case, as best I can.

Definitely remove the offending stories. If they have been identified, then they should go.

As to eliminating ALL minor themed stories, I feel that would be a great disservice to the community. There are those of us that have been dealing with issues that have started in childhood. These are themes that need to be explored. Many of us have suffered abuses, and gone through terrible hardships in our youth. To not be able to explore what makes us who we are, and what we are dealing with, would be a terrible loss.

In fiction we use hyperbole, allegory, and push situations to extremes to explore and examine what we are now, and where we are going. Of the authors and stories I mentioned earlier in this thread, none of them are simply about abusing little children. There is much more going on, and much more being explored. To cast that into nothingness would be heartbreaking. It would diminish the very service this community represents.

I have written, and am writing minor themed stories. I have ZERO desire to make them a reality. If what happened to children in the Fiction Archives happened in reality, I would be sickened and horrified. The story is not an instruction manual, but a mechanism for saying something you feel, or an expedition into those feelings to try and understand. The very purpose of fiction is an effort to understand that which may be unknowable.

I see no reason that the Fiction Archive could not be blocked off behind a pass-worded section. The Story Recommendations & Ideas Board, in which this very thread resides, is behind a password login. It cannot be seen unless you are a member and sign into the site. Surely it wouldn't be that difficult to do something similar with the Fiction Archive.

Please. Before you hit delete on thousands of stories from the Fiction Archive, consider that the stories actually serve a purpose for the eunuch community. Consider that if you delete Minor themes, the powers that be may next come after Rape themes, or Violence themes. Perhaps anything with the tag, Graphic or Slavery. At what point do we stop?

My feeling is there are a lot of worthwhile stories that would be lost. Please consider putting the stories out of reach of the casually surfing busybody. Protect the EA, but please don't muzzle an entire section of the eunuch community.

All I ask, is that you consider that Minor themes are just as valid as anything else posted to the Fiction Archive.

I truly hope I don't end up being the lone voice pleading for this cause. Please, fellow EA members, voice your opinion on this matter. If I'm horribly wrong in my interpretation, I want to know. If you agree with me, let me hear you too.

I am aware that what I want, and possibly even what the archive members want, may not matter, but I would never forgive myself If I didn't try to share my views.

Thus ends my period of pleading my case. Thank you for hearing me.

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:44 pm I truly hope I don't end up being the lone voice pleading for this cause. Please, fellow EA members, voice your opinion on this matter. If I'm horribly wrong in my interpretation, I want to know. If you agree with me, let me hear you too.

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gree completely. All the stories I have written (more than 30) are minor stories. Most of the stories I read are minor stories. I like to read the stories but I would NEVER do anything to harm a real child.

There are plenty of sites that carry boys getting fucked stories by men and other boys. I don't know whether the problem was with the sex included in the culprit stories or the castrations or a combination of both, since I don't know which stories caused the problem. One can buy books on Amazon, The Real Tom Brown School Days, for instance that have all the boy on boy and man on boy sex one could imagine. Perhaps there will be a way to separate the Message board from the archive, so if the archive gets taken down, it won't affect the message boards.

I took a look at asstr; I thought our story submission software was bad. I don't have a clue about how to find or post anything there.

George RR Martin's Song of Ice is mostly about children, and I love the story. Children become kings and die. Seven year old boys are thrown from tower windows. A father fucks his daughters, has children by them, and keeps their daughters to fuck them later, killing the sons so he has no competition. Twin brother and sister fuck, cuckolding the king, producing future kings. A thirteen year-old girl is given in marriage and becomes a dragon queen. Bastards abound.

Why are such stories so popular? Harry Potter stories are just as popular with adults as they are with children. Orson Scott Card of Ender's game fame, writes about children. Could it be that many of us are, at heart, still 13 or 14?

kristoff wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:49 pm The problem was that someone made a complaint to the DNS registrar about child pornography being hosted at Eunuch.org. They were specifically cited two pieces which probably should never have been put up in the first place. As a result, they blocked our DNS access, but that did not block the site access at BME (hence the 184.80.34.18).

Hrm, I wonder if it might be best to hop out of the .org gLTD and find something else. Perhaps finding ourselves in .nl or .ca which'd be less within the reach of US Law, and skittish DNS registrars..

Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:31 pm I don't know whether the problem was with the sex included in the culprit stories or the castrations or a combination of both, since I don't know which stories caused the problem.

I would like to know what the problems were with the two offending stories. Was it scat, snuff, torture, bestiality or something else?

Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:31 pm Could it be that many of us are, at heart, still 13 or 14?

I think I was emotionally 12 until I had a severe relapse of my ME on October 31, 2000. Now I think I am emotionally about nine.

Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:31 pm Could it be that many of us are, at heart, still 13 or 14?

Were I to respond to Slammr's question with all the accuracy my word-usage-skill-set allows, I would say that it is my sense of my age at heart is of the as-yet unborn. As I have consistently observed, I never went through the infant-child transition, and therefore, could never become a child, or, subsequently an adolescent, or even yet, an adult, in the traditional sense of culturally based socialization. For the purposes of what I find to be my life work, this is optimal.

Optimal? I find being as I am allows me access to ways of doing deep values research as a participant-observer in ways no child, adolescent, or adult would be able to accomplish.

The Eunuch Archive political board postings contain what I experience as indicators of possible conflict within the body politic. These indicators are, to me, indicators of issues grounded in deep social/cultural values, values traditionally held as being so deep as to be defined as outside the ken of permissible inquiry. And yet, to me, those "outside the ken of permissible inquiry" deep values are of superficial surface when contrasted with the issues of some of the most "distressing to socially well-adjusted people" issues of the most profoundly challenging of the Archive Fiction stories.

I previously mentioned the paper, "Dialogue - A proposal," by David Bohm, Donald Factor, and Peter Garrett, which is easily found on the Internet. I have mentioned the last sentence of the first paragraph, "In our view this condition points to a deep and pervasive defect in the process of human thought." Where I differ from the that view is in finding that there is no defect; instead, I find that there is an as-yet-unfulfilled opportunity which holds formidable promise for the future of humanity.

For having the temerity to ponder asking the deepest value questions of the Eunuch Archive Fiction Stories, it was traditional to be burned at the stake not all that long ago. Or, have I terribly mis-read human history?

My personal (and scientific?) model of the process of conventional socialization goes somewhat like this: Prior to being born, a person is collecting the tools for becoming born. During infancy, a person is collecting the tools for symbolic communication. The infant-child transition is the internalizing of deception as a tool for symbolic communication. Childhood is the collecting of the repertoire of culturally-mandated tools of deception (aka, psychological defenses). Adolescence is the collecting of the skill set, as culturally mandated, necessary for the adolescent-adult transition. Adulthood is the stage of coercive indoctrination of deception as culturally mandated into the next generation. And the vicious cycles of addictive displacement are as though interminable. Except for autism, autism being a condition in which the self is an object of objective study such that the distortions of reality which are the essence of psychological defenses (mental mechanisms which distort reality in the service of the [Freudian] socialization-generated ego [as contrasted with the work of W. R. D. Fairbairn, and his object relations theory of selfhood?] are recognized as being of deception and are therefore rejected and expunged from the self so studied.

Does the immediately prior sentence, beginning with, "Except for autism..." make any useful sense other than as a gaggle of unintelligible incomprehensibilities?

As I now recall, a psychiatrist, Abraham Low, once commented, "If my patients had patience, I would not have patients." That works for me only if read aloud. I deem the whole set of Archive Fiction stories to be a very precious social resource, one for which much of society is not well-prepared, and is not well prepared because of the deep values within some of the stories, values which are of the tragedies of some very destructive social taboos and the tragedies of exposing those tragedies within conscious human awareness.

Remember the strategic hamlet, My Lai, of the Song My village? To save My Lai, it had to be destroyed? If I am sufficiently impatient, how long might it be, before I become inpatient? Perhaps, to wisely save the Archive and all of its stories, we truly need to be patient in order to avoid destroying that which we wisely seek to save.

My best guess so far is that the textual content of the stories is not the real issue. I suspect that the real issue is the way in which the meanings deep within some of the most profoundly valuable of the stories grapple with , by whatever name one prefers that it be called, that so-called "deep and pervasive defect in the process of human thought."

I offer a gentle not-quite-an-admonishment. Patience, diligent patience, in getting the Fiction Archive once again available may be the only practicable way to save it. My personal notion is that the Fiction Archive "predicament" may be important enough to merit serious attention by those interested in it who meet in person at the MoM next month.

If I cannot drive there, cannot moped there, cannot bicycle there, cannot run there, cannot walk there; perhaps I will attempt to crawl there. I do know how to crawl. Deep values research often can be done no faster than at a slow crawl.

janekane (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:08 am Were I to respond to Slammr's question with all the accuracy my word-usage-skill-set allows, I would say that it is my sense of my age at heart is of the as-yet unborn. As I have consistently observed, I never went through the infant-child transition, and therefore, could never become a child, or, subsequently an adolescent, or even yet, an adult, in the traditional sense of culturally based socialization. For the purposes of what I find to be my life work, this is optimal.

We are very fortunate that sense of age and real maturity are not interdependent. You have a maturity that speaks to the heart of the issue.

janekane (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:08 am Except for autism, autism being a condition in which the self is an object of objective study such that the distortions of reality which are the essence of psychological defenses (mental mechanisms which distort reality in the service of the [Freudian] socialization-generated ego [as contrasted with the work of W. R. D. Fairbairn, and his object relations theory of selfhood?] are recognized as being of deception and are therefore rejected and expunged from the self so studied.

Does the immediately prior sentence, beginning with, "Except for autism..." make any useful sense other than as a gaggle of unintelligible incomprehensibilities?

This makes sense to me. It is appropriate you should mention this. There is a difference between the perceived reality of what happens in the fiction archive, and the true exploration of self going on in those stories.

janekane (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:08 am Perhaps, to wisely save the Archive and all of its stories, we truly need to be patient in order to avoid destroying that which we wisely seek to save.

I agree, and can be patient. I also believe a discussion of merit should take place within this forum. Perhaps that discussion should have been had long ago. (Perhaps it was and I missed it?) I am perfectly prepared for being wrong in my assertions. I can accept that the Fiction Archive may not return, and if it does, it may be significantly altered of content. I can wait for the decision to come down.

What I don't believe we should wait any longer on, is the discussion. We need to discuss the pros and cons now. We need to give as many affected people as possible a voice in the intervening time.

janekane (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:08 am My personal notion is that the Fiction Archive "predicament" may be important enough to merit serious attention by those interested in it who meet in person at the MoM next month.

Would that I could attend. With time constraints and financial difficulties I simply cannot attend. My heart greatly desires to meet you all in person, and exchange stories, and life lessons. There are people on this forum that I greatly admire. Meeting you all in real life would be wondrous and fulfilling. Alas I cannot. I could work around the time constraints, but I couldn't get around the financial burden.

Unless... Anybody want to buy a spare kidney?

Barring a financial windfall, my only outlet to express my concerns is this forum. I want to keep the discussions open and flowing from now until whenever the final decision and outcome is made. I promise I'll accept whatever that may be.

As I said before, I recognize the importance of the work that is done on this forum. I wouldn't want the Fiction Archive to damage that good work. I also recognize the value of the Fiction Archive. Both losing it, and censoring it would prove tragic in the extreme.

The discussion is like trying to choose between my heart and my lungs. Which do I remove to save the other?

Please fellow members, keep the discussion going. I'm just as interested in hearing from those who think the stories have no value, as from those who agree with me. Even if our voices make no difference to the final outcome, at least we will have tried.

Words. What to do with words. Words which convey meaning and sometimes convey the opposite of intended meaning. "Discussion" is a word which stirs flashbacks of earlier trauma. Dialogue works better for me.

I do not engage in discussions. The word, "discussion" makes me think of a brain concussions resulting from having been violently, repeatedly struck in the head by a discus thrown by someone who was intransigently intent on teaching me to hate myself for being truthfully who I am.

Who, in this sense am I? I am an ordinary, run-of-the-mill person who happened to be given a brain having a few cells missing. What cells are missing? The ones that would allow me to learn to hate anyone or anything.

Oh, oh dear. Conversation is not much better than discussion, as everything seems to me to be put in the form of the logical converse, and that makes words into weapons of meaningless diversion and weapons of mischevious deception (or WMDs?). However, if I may equivalence discussion and/or conversation with dialogue (as, e.g., in Martin Buber, I and Thou), then those words are fine with me.

I am intent on doing my part to keep the dialogue properly alive.

Some 25 years ago, I had to use my gut feelings to choose between losing my gut feelings (most of which seem to have resided in my colon) or losing my gut feelings and everything else, if, as I thought likely, I would develop terminal colon cancer before anyone realized I had it. Bye, bye, gut (colon) feelings. Hello, rest of my life.

At about the same time I had the balls to choose between losing my testicles or losing my testicles and the rest of my life if keeping testicles would, as I thought likely, give rise to prostate disease as almost took my dad's life when he was 50.

My dad and brother tried keeping testicles and colons until they died. Neither of them got to age 70, which I have done, and done very well, thank you...

Did I do the right thing in getting draconian cancer preventive surgeries? There is no way to tell.

The only way I would be able to have learned if I did "the right thing" would be to have not done it and to already have found my body unable to take one more breath, and, in dying, have forgotten what I learned.

Not every precious choice is easy or simple. Some take time and effort to work out decently.