punkypink (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:18 pm Worse, it seems the only sort of people who might stand up and say "good for you, well done" to a trans person, tends to be those who have fetishes about women with male genitalia, or men with female genitalia. Once again the focus is on the outside, the objectification of a human being, for these people's own selfish desires and fetishes.

I do understand what you say. Nevertheless, I have to say that it is normal for people to like other people who have certain physical characteristics. For example, I'm very attracted to European or American Caucasian and Hispanic men. If you ask me why, I can't give you a satisfying answer. My family is Vietnamese. My mom is not really excited with the idea of me getting married to a Caucasian girl (she hasn't known that I only like guys) although she won't disapprove me of doing so.

The interesting thing is that my mom always sees Western beauty as a model, a perfection. She never forces me to see that way, but I somehow see just like she does. So far, I haven't been attracted to Vietnamese or other Asian guys. I don't intentionally discriminate any Asian man because I'm myself Asian. I just can't help my attraction for certain groups. I don't know why. My loving mom never teaches me to hate anyone.

Hence, I think the attraction to a man who has a vagina or a woman who has a penis is just another dimension of what I explain above. Maybe people who are attracted to those special individuals are jerks, but maybe there are nice and loving people too. They just can't help their fetishes. That doesn't make them bad people.

I want to have a vagina-like organ without taking female hormones or female's role at all. I know that there will be people who only see me as a sex object that meets their fetish. I also believe that there will be people who loves me for who I am. If a man who wants me because of my strange genitalia sincerely loves me for who I am, I won't get upset with his fetish. It's not like what he wants will hurt me physically or emotionally.

mynhii85 (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:52 pm I do understand what you say. Nevertheless, I have to say that it is normal for people to like other people who have certain physical characteristics. For example, I'm very attracted to European or American Caucasian and Hispanic men. If you ask me why, I can't give you a satisfying answer. My family is Vietnamese. My mom is not really excited with the idea of me getting married to a Caucasian girl (she hasn't known that I only like guys) although she won't disapprove me of doing so.

The interesting thing is that my mom always sees Western beauty as a model, a perfection. She never forces me to see that way, but I somehow see just like she does. So far, I haven't been attracted to Vietnamese or other Asian guys. I don't intentionally discriminate any Asian man because I'm myself Asian. I just can't help my attraction for certain groups. I don't know why. My loving mom never teaches me to hate anyone.

Hence, I think the attraction to a man who has a vagina or a woman who has a penis is just another dimension of what I explain above. Maybe people who are attracted to those special individuals are jerks, but maybe there are nice and loving people too. They just can't help their fetishes. That doesn't make them bad people.

I want to have a vagina-like organ without taking female hormones or female's role at all. I know that there will be people who only see me as a sex object that meets their fetish. I also believe that there will be people who loves me for who I am. If a man who wants me because of my strange genitalia sincerely loves me for who I am, I won't get upset with his fetish. It's not like what he wants will hurt me physically or emotionally.

Ok, first of all, I am assuming that what you understand of what I say is mostly, if not wholely based on my original post.

I have mentioned in other posts in the past, and I will mention again, that everyone have fetishes, preferences. The key is to never let these fetishes and preferences control you.

Let me try to verbalise an example.

you say you are more attracted to caucasian men right?

a) You will rule someon out on the sole basis that they are not Caucasian

b) You won't say no to someone if they are not Caucasian, but if they are, that is a happy bonus.

One of those is discrimination(and letting your fetish control you). The other is seeing a fetish for what it is, something that can bring additional enjoyment, without hurtful and frankly shameful discrimination towards others.

A man who wants you first for your genitalia does not really love you, since he puts your genitalia before you in importance. Perhaps you suppress the fact that it DOES hurts you because people like us don't get many chances to begin with, but ultimately it IS objectification, and no matter how loving he (or she, in my case) may be, I refuse to be defined first and foremost by what is between my legs. You show me a lesbian who comes and say "I like you for what is between your legs" and I will show her the exit. Best way to get on my shit list is to define a book by its cover.

So, I agree with you that we all cannot help what fetishes we have, but we CAN help what we do about it, how we behave, whether we let it control us, or whether we control it. Whether we let it make us discriminate and hurt others.

That is the crux of what I wish to point out.

punkypink (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:18 pm I admit that at times I feel alienated that unlike everyone else with body dysmorphia, I have nothing to do, nothing to talk about, nothing to show, for people to give pats on the back. Sometimes, it feels like having the courage to actually NOT give in to stereotype and be who I am, gathers scorn, or at the very least, apathy.

Sorry, but isn't your avatar a picture of you? If so, then you are already showing that you are female and apparently comfortable as such. It is also obvious that you ARE gender dysmorphic, but you've acheived presentation as female and so the dysmorphia is dissipating (because now you're comfortable in your skin). Are you really saying you want to be "dysmorphic" forever?

So I would say that your situation is that you were dysmorphic but have successfully satisfied that urge. So your "nothing to talk about" is actually a sign of your achievement. People that are undergoing surgery and fretting about transition haven't made it where you are yet.

And in terms of "pats on the back" I thought everyone here agrees that you are stunning in your presentation as female. This isn't just your looks, but also your attitude, how you relate with people, etc.

It may be that the "journey" part is over for you, you are now there and need to figure out what to do with your life going forward. It can be comforting to have a struggle that defines you, and disorienting when that struggle is mostly behind you. What is your next challenge?

Anyway, if you can't tell I'm patting your back and also kicking your butt! Don't make up silly reasons to have self-pity. Celebrate where you are and move forward. There is nothing

punkypink (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:06 pm wrong with transcending a need to be a regular at the EA.

Rather, there is a feeling that I am constantly being invalidated or fee

l like I'm purposefully being ignored out of disapproval.

This made me laugh (in a nice way) because this is a really "chick" thing to say. A guy would never in a million years think of worrying about approval from an internet forum (even a great one like this).

We're all different here. Some of us fit into a category, like I'm "very straight guy plagued with sex addiction". I've found about five people here over the years who are going through the same things I am. But most are really different. I think you may be unique here, even among the "transgender" category. The more unique you are, the less likely you're going to get a resonance where you feel like you're really in tune with someone. For example, I just came back from a boxing class because I just love the sheer masculine joy of beating someone up while showing how well I can take a beating. Is that something that appeals to you? Probably not. Does that mean that I feel invalidated because you and I can't share that interest? No.

I also don't know what you mean by "invalidated". Has anyone here actually ever said that you are going about your life in the wrong way? I doubt it. I think the problem is you're looking for some sort of resonance and not finding it. You're hoping for people to say "yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about" but that is an unreasonable expectation -- how could we? If that is what you're seeking (just guessing, please don't take these as assertions that I know much about you) then you might have to cast a wider net than EA. Telling you to try TG or lesbian forums does not mean we're telling you to leave, but it is simply a suggestion to help you find what you want. Telling you that you're unique does not mean we're telling you you're not one of us, but is simply a suggestion to help you understand why we have trouble resonating with you.

Feels like I am the "elephant (wo)man" of the lesbian world.Thanks for the discrimination, lesbians.

Is it because of your genitals that they don't like you? If so, it is not fair to blame them. I know you have an ideal of not caring about anything superficial, but are you sure you aren't guilty of that too? I'm sure there are LOTS of guys who would like to be with you, but I haven't heard you say (maybe I missed it in another thread) that you're pursuing that angle. You can't define yourself as a lesbian and then say that appearance doesn't matter, that is hypocritical. Obviously there is something to you attractive about females, and probably that includes female genitalia. Would you be sexually attracted to another transgender person with male genitalia? Would you be sexually attracted to a feminine guy? Would you be attracted to a big, hairy trucker? At some point I suspect you'd draw the line. And it is fair to. Attraction is not intellectual, so you can't call it discrimination. I don't want someone with a penis, and most lesbians don't either.

You can't spend your life thinking that other people should be attracted to you. There are plenty of people not attracted to me. That's their right. You're lucky because you're beautiful and interesting. Think of how difficult it is for all the ugly, uninteresting people out there. (I know that is a superficial statement, but just saying there are lots of people who have no hope of ever finding someone who finds them attractive) You have a huge advantage.

Anyway, this is all "tough love". I think you're beautiful, I think you'll find someone wonderful, but I think you need to have a better (more optimistic, more life strategy, and less self pity) view on how to get there.

Best regards,

SD

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:04 pm Sorry, but isn't your avatar a picture of you? If so, then you are already showing that you are passable. It is also obvious that you ARE gender dysmorphic, but you've obviously acheived presentation as female and so the dysmorphia is dissipating (because now you're comfortable in your skin). Are you really saying you want to be "dysmorphic" forever?

So I would say that your situation is that you were dysmorphic but have successfully satisfied that urge. So your "nothing to talk about" is actually a sign of your achievement. People that are undergoing surgery and fretting about transition haven't made it where you are yet.

And in terms of "pats on the back" I thought everyone here agrees that you are stunning in your presentation as female. This isn't just your looks, but also your attitude, how you relate with people, etc.

It may be that the "journey" part is over for you, you are now there and need to figure out what to do with your life going forward. It can be comforting to have a struggle that defines you, and disorienting when that struggle is mostly behind you. What is your next challenge?

Anyway, if you can't tell I'm patting your back and also kicking your butt! Don't make up silly reasons to have self-pity. Celebrate where you are and move forward. There is nothing

wrong with transcending a need to be a regular at the EA.

Best regards,

SD

Given that you've mentioned gender dysmorphia, then yes, I was gender dysmorphic and I'm not anymore since I know what gender I am now. However I am not sure what that has to do with passibility. In an ideal world, even if I don't pass, I still wouldn't feel gender dysmorphic once I know and can live as who I am.

I am not, and have never been BODY dysmorphic, which is the point of my post, that it sucks that i don't hate my physical self on the EA because it feels like there is a lot of exclusion for that.

My having nothing to talk about, is in that there was no visible milestones, that unlike a lot of people who do it visibly, I quietly got on with it. It reminds me of the Allied advance through europe during WWII, where the big armies had a lot of publicity as they made visible advances through Europe, and got all the platitudes and glory, while small special forces groups simply got on with what needed to be done without any fanfare, and ended up with not even basic recognition of their efforts. (indeed there was a lot of hostility towards special forces during WW2 and a glaring silence about their contribution because back then they were a "new" thing). Sounds familiar?

I don't want pats on the back for looking like a female. That is just sheer dumb luck, some people are born with it some aren't, its not something to be complimented on. What's the point? to make me feel like who i am depends on how i look? to make another trans person who didn't get lucky in the looks department feel jealous or envious? I don't need or want compliments for how I look. Maybe it is time I took my photograph down so people can finally put aside how I look and focus on what I SAY.

What I want is the acknowledgement that who we are is just as important as how we look, or even more so.

As for self pity, I don't think having 99% of the lesbian world see me as a crossdressing man is "making up reasons" for self pity.

Sometimes we think too much.

Sometimes not enough.

Ultimately our time might be better spent just living life, than thinking about it.

In my recent introduction postings, I intended to make decently clear that, through transgendered, I am not much more female in identity than male, and I reject the "pick one or the other, but not some of each" common mindset.

Because I never developed a "fetish" attitude, it took my coming to a very clear understanding that testosterone would plausibly greatly increase my chances of dying younger than I am from cancer.

Of course, I was guessing; the future has not happened yet, and guessing using scientific notions (such as through carefully developed system-dynamics scenarios evaluated through Bayesian statistical approaches) is still guessing.

Alas, the only way I would know that my successes in getting surgeries intended to prevent cancer were necessary would be through dying from cancer which I would certainly have developed without the surgeries. Only, there is no way I have been able to imagine to get that "certainly would have developed" thing, either.

I choose to live as me, and not as a gender stereotype. It was my hope to make it very clear that, though I am transgendered, without the cancer risk being, in my view, unacceptably high, I would not have had the bilateral orchiectomy.

The pseudonym I choose to use here, JaneKane, is a name that is first female and second male, and came to me in part because of an electronic circuit known as a J-K flip-flop. While the state of an electronic J-K flip-flop changes very quickly, my gender state (how much Jane-female and how much Kane-male) modulates as though continuously and almost never is overwhelmingly female or overwhelmingly male.

The concern that you, Emily, raise, seems to me to be very much like the concern I had until recently regarding seeking membership and participation here. I wondered whether I would properly belong, whether people here would accept me as a valid person, whether I could post concerns, views, thoughts and feelings, which would make EA a better place for its members.

Being really new here as a member, I have yet to learn whether my presence will be helpful to others. For now, Emily, I assure you that I found reading those of your postings which I have read so far to be helpful to me, and I thank you for writing them.

I have long found myself being a "yes, and..." person, living in a society which seems to me to often be exclusively "no, but..."...

On more than one occasion, when both tea and coffee were available to drink, and I was asked, "Would you like coffee or tea?" my reply has been "Yes," if either coffee or tea would be okay and "No," if I thought something else much to be preferred. My answers have sometimes, methinks, flummoxed people who live in a dichotomous, or, "no, but..." imaginary world.

It is my understanding that every person, to live a live of integrity (wholeness is a better word?), needs to put effort toward being authentic and in harmony with one's inner nature. Distress may be a useful indicator of being in disharmony with one's inner nature. A sense of self-affirmation may be a helpful indicator of living in harmony with one's inner self.

Emily, thank you.

nullorchis (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:40 pm Sometimes we think too much.

Sometimes not enough.

Ultimately our time might be better spent just living life, than thinking about it.

If this attitude had been prevailent in human history we might still have a situation where black people are slaves, no racial equality, women not allowed to vote, and gay people still spit on.

It is thanks to those very people who you accuse of thinking too much and not just living life, that you get to enjoy the level of acceptance you enjoy today and seem to take for granted.

punkypink (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:45 pm If this attitude had been prevailent in human history we might still have a situation where black people are slaves, no racial equality, women not allowed to vote, and gay people still spit on.

It is thanks to those very people who you accuse of thinking too much and not just living life, that you get to enjoy the level of acceptance you enjoy today and seem to take for granted.

Funny the different ways to interpret a statement.

Glad to hear how it is interpreted rather than having it fester and be problematic.

The important word is "SOMETIMES".

Another important word is "WE" which is intended to be generic and not intended to mean anyone in particular.

Place emphasis on "SOMETIMES" and change "WE" to "I" and re-read the statement. I know it applies to me and it just seems to me that it is pretty close to being a universal statement that could apply to just about everyone, but I admit, I could be wrong in that assumption.

SOMETIMES it is just nice to live and enjoy life, in spite of all our cares and woes. One can live life POSITIVELY, such as being positive life will get better in spite of the current situation, or positive that life sucks and one will live in complete and absolute misery now and into eternity.

I choose to think about my life as positive that most everything in my life has been either fair or good, even though the bad parts do tend to overshadow the fair and good parts. But if I were to dwell on the few bad parts and ignore the good parts, every day would be crappier than the previous day, and that would just be an awful way to live my life.

I grew up believing that Life is easier when I conform to what others expect of me.

But, all too late, I learned conformity was living my life as a lie and I was a fake.

That kind of life, to me, sucks.

Living life the Frank Sinatra way is my preferred alternative, at long last.

I am surely impacted and affected by what others say to me, about me, do to me, don't do to me; there is no avoiding that.

How I react to and dwells on such things, may surely amplify, or minimize, the impact. I call it internal duck feathers and armor. Inner strength. Confidence, Self worth. Self assurance. Letting nothing anyone thinks about me, says to me, or says about me shall annoy or bother me nor take away from my quest of enjoying each moment of my life. Oddly enough, that "anyone" use to be me, myself, and I. I was my own worst enemy. Finally got rid of that dragon and put on my internal feathers and armor and life is much more like living with Alka Seltzer. Plop Plop, fizz fizz, OH what a relief it is. I don't live in LA LA LAND or complete denial that there is no pain, but I get along much better.

Another thing I do on occasion if I start to feel sorry for myself, or feel like the world is closing in; I write. What is bothering me, annoying me, what I think about so and so who is talking about me or writing about me and get the thoughts, and sometimes the anger, down on physical paper - not in a computer. Hand writing thoughts helps me think things through slowly. Then when it is all out and down on paper, I burn the paper. The world has not changed, how others think of me has not changed. But any negative, hateful, spiteful, unpleasant thoughts I might have had are out of me, written down, burned, and gone. I then go about my life without the burden of the baggage of negative thoughts about and towards others, or perhaps myself. I am free of such thoughts, and free to enjoy life again. It seems silly when I write about this, but oddly enough it provides me with such an incredible removal of burden it is like some kind of nirvana which literally means:

"blowing out"— referring in the Buddhist context, to the blowing out of the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion.

I guess, in my own way, what works for me, is a kind of meditation, though

not in the strictest sense. Not that what I do will be of use to anyone else, for we obviously know that we are each different and for every problem that is the same to each of us, we each need a customized solution.

Mac (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:57 am providing true unisex restrooms with private stalls; providing unisex bath and dres

Mac (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:45 pm

Lesley (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:39 pm sing facilities with individual privacy;

QUOTE]

Having individual stalls would defeat the possibility of creating acceptance

punkypink (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:48 pm of the male and female body to each of the g

enders and those that lie between.

Be mi

ndful that the Romans had public toilets an

d baths were all went nude, male, female or eunuch.

Good point. And when in history, what culture, or religion, got all up tight about that? Must have been some religious or political ruler who had insecure thoughts about their physical or genital appearance. And we are stuck with such thinking to this day in our culture, and our culture continues to spread its self loathing to other more open cultures.

punkypink (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:06 pm I don't need advice. I need however, to occassionally get some hint that not choosing to be sheep and blindly following the crowd, that actually taking the time and trouble to understand issues of gender identity, dysmorphia, and what makes us who we are, that being unsuperficial, is the right thing to do.

Obligatory Far Side reference:

http://germaniscool.com/lab_images/sheep2.JPG

Wait! Wait! Listen to me! . . . We don't HAVE to be just sheep!

I haven't been satisfied acting like a sheep any time in my entire life. I really pissed off the nuns at catechism when I was six years old, just by asking questions.