Bodybuilding while castrated - castrating with test

[Losethem (imported)]

I am also a body builder and I am currently on 1 gram of test a week (2.5cc @ 400 mg/cc). There is no evidence that injectable test is dangerous, although I would run from the orals. I have been cycling for 3 years now and I get the liver enzymes checked and each time they are fine. The other issue is with cholesterol, and mine is always less than 200. My doctor is well aware of what I am doing and deals with it (frowning, but not warning me of imminent death). As far as the side effects, I have never really had much...little to no ball shrinkage, never acne, and only rarely had roid rage (once), although I am sure that I am sterile at the moment. While the injectables are safe, the orals will cause liver failure, especially oral trenbolene, if used long enough. Its hysterical disinformation like this that makes those of us who juice outlaws when in reality we are your neighbors, friends, or even relatives.

Yes, we wouldn't want to believe anyone that works in healthcare and sees the results of what you guys do. Nope, I don't have an informed opinion at all. Nope, I didn't receive any training or education about this. Nope I'm just a stupid idiot.

I'll just sit here on the sidelines and wait for you to walk through my door when all this steroid abuse finally causes you health issues. It's going to, but you guys just don't want to see it because of your vanity.

So let's take a look at some of the wonderful things you've got coming to you...

Hepatitis, suppression of blood clotting factors, hypernatremia, hyperkalemia, hypercalcemia, hyperphosphatemia, hypercholesterolemia, edema, acne, and sleep apena among the many things that will likely happen.

In plain English - hepatitis, you're gonna need a liver transplant if you keep abusing this. Lack of blood clotting factors, I sure hope you don't get into an accident where you bleed in any significant amount because you're gonna bleed out. High cholesterol, let's hope you don't have a heart attack because your heart has to work hard to get blood around the blockages. Oh, you'll probably also get muscle twitching and screwed up hearth rythms from the hyperkalemia so perhaps you'll need a pacemaker at some point, and I sure hope you don't go into renal failure from the hypercalcemia, when the calcium hardens in your urinary system or maybe it will manifest itself in your arms breaking in two when you lift those heavy weights due to the calcium being sucked out of your bones. Sleep apnea... I hope your body doesn't forget to breathe for you when you're sleeping, which will cause you to eventually die of suffocation.

Yup, you don't have any problems coming at all.

--LT

[Riverwind (imported)]

My body is a temple, I only put in it things that are natural like good food and lots of it, if you are putting steroids into your body you will pay the price, everybody who does, has.

I wish you the best because you will need all the luck you can get.

River

[SplitDik (imported)]

Yes, we wouldn't want to believe anyone that works in healthcare and sees the results of what you guys do. Nope, I don't have an informed opinion at all. Nope, I didn't receive any training or education about this. Nope I'm just a stupid idiot.

I'll just sit here on the sidelines and wait for you to walk through my door when all this steroid abuse finally causes you health issues. It's going to, but you guys just don't want to see it because of your vanity.

So let's take a look at some of the wonderful things you've got coming to you...

Hepatitis, suppression of blood clotting factors, hypernatremia, hyperkalemia, hypercalcemia, hyperphosphatemia, hypercholesterolemia, edema, acne, and sleep apena among the many things that will likely happen.

In plain English - hepatitis, you're gonna need a liver transplant if you keep abusing this. Lack of blood clotting factors, I sure hope you don't get into an accident where you bleed in any significant amount because you're gonna bleed out. High cholesterol, let's hope you don't have a heart attack because your heart has to work hard to get blood around the blockages. Oh, you'll probably also get muscle twitching and screwed up hearth rythms from the hyperkalemia so perhaps you'll need a pacemaker at some point, and I sure hope you don't go into renal failure from the hypercalcemia, when the calcium hardens in your urinary system or maybe it will manifest itself in your arms breaking in two when you lift those heavy weights due to the calcium being sucked out of your bones. Sleep apnea... I hope your body doesn't forget to breathe for you when you're sleeping, which will cause you to eventually die of suffocation.

Yup, you don't have any problems coming at all.

--LT

LT, my objection was that you mentioned liver problems when he indicated he was using injectibles. That is not an issue. There are the other issues, which I mentioned, and now you are mentioning, more related to cardiac health.

Secondly, we have to distinguish between use and abuse. The therapeutic dosages you cited are for replacement therapy, so let's call that a 1x dose. Professional body builders (in my definition abusers) take incredible doses. They will take several CCs per day, plus multiple orals, plus anti-estrogens, insulin, and clenbuterol, all at the same time. The dose being talked about here is not at the abuse level, but more at the "intermediate" level (see typical stacks at http://www.steroid.com/intermediatecycle1.php) and you'll note that those stacks usually include additional orals and an anti-androgen (all of which are admittedly harsh on the liver).

Then it depends on the actual steroid used as they have different potencies and half-lives. Some only last about 8 hours and need to be injected daily. Others stick around and can be done weekly.

Next, steroids are generally unfairly villianized. Mainly I think this is because (a) most people are thinking of the effects of major abuse, (b) most guys taking major amounts include orals.

Seriously though, how many steroid users have you ever heard of who have outright died from effects of the drugs? Every beefy guy in every local gym is taking them, every hollywood hunk actor, many politicians, many top businessman, are taking them regularly at significant (x5 normal test) levels. There really is no evidence that steroid use is particularly fatal, especially if done at moderate levels using only injectables. There are not guys dropping dead from this stuff any more than guys are dropping dead mowing their lawns.

Lastly, it is really easy to monitor all this stuff. My doctor does regular blood work, and if I'm taking an oral will immediately note elevated liver stress. Cholesterol and blood pressure are easy to monitor regularly. And heart size can be checked every couple years with a general health scan.

Also, your comment about "someone in the health field" is not really valid. Every nurse and most doctors I see are not epitomes of health themselves. Many of them are just as happy to prescribe other meds which are much worse than steroids. Cholesterol meds such as Crestor have worse side effects. Pain meds, sleeping pills, anti-inflammatories, muscle relaxants, etc. are just as dumb.

You also need to put things in perspective. Recreational stuff is also harmful to people's health. Drinking is just as stressful on the liver. Smoking is really dumb. Lots of people are abusing painkillers, ecstacy, even viagra. Overeating is really killing people. Basically, it is fine to be worried about one's health, but it is perfectly reasonable for people to compromise their health for something.

I'd rather be an in-shape, energetic, athletic, successful person with chance of hypertension than being a fat smoker, or going about in a daze of pain killers and sleeping pills, or any number of standard modes that people seem happy to live in.

So your warning is good, but your delivery of that warning is over the top and uncalled for, and you're really mixing up the scare factors that have been sold to you. Looking at the particular case presented -- a guy taking moderate doses of injectables -- I'm very confident you will not find much medical literature showing that it is any worse than eating a cheeseburger and couple beers and popping an Ibuprofen (which is standard way of life for most Americans).

[Losethem (imported)]

LT, my objection was that you mentioned liver problems when he indicated he was using injectibles. That is not an issue. There are the other issues, which I mentioned, and now you are mentioning, more related to cardiac health.

Also, your comment about "someone in the health field" is not really valid. Every nurse and most doctors I see are not epitomes of health themselves. Many of them are just as happy to prescribe other meds which are much worse than steroids. Cholesterol meds such as Crestor have worse side effects. Pain meds, sleeping pills, anti-inflammatories, muscle relaxants, etc. are just as dumb.

Sorry, until I have compelling evidence that you are medically educated, I'm going to disagree. The only people I've seen in here supporting those higher levels at 750-900mg per week are those SAME people who are abusing the steroids.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't buy your argument.

Since I was the one that was challenged to show why this high dose was wrong or against medical advice, I went and looked it up (in books, not online) and have that backing up what I said.

These excessive amounts of testosterone will cause hepatoxicity (that's the liver folks) which means that these drugs are ruining the liver if taken in excessive amounts.

For the record excessive amounts is anything that is above and beyond the levels stated on the label of the drug, and the levels that have been stated in this thread are significantly above what the label says is to be used. It also doesn't matter which form of the drug you're using. The references I looked in did not make *any* distinction between oral, bucoccal, injected, trandermal, or other forms of the drug. They are all listed on the same warning lists.

Until you can actually cite and show me where the scientific community is supporting your claims that what I'm saying are not true, then I have to dismiss what you're saying. For the record, anything you're citing from steroid.com (the link you provided above) is from the community of people profiting on the abuse and illegal use of steroids. When I went to the link you supplied, the first thing that showed up on the page was an advertisement for a site selling oral steroids without a prescription. Hardly a ringing endorsement for convincing anyone that this is a medically safe thing to be doing.

I was educated in actual schools and in hospitals about this stuff. The only education I'm seeing from those of you that are saying I'm wrong seems to have been obtained in a locker room.

These people that are using testosterone in the amounts mentioned *will* have problems, regardless of route of administration.

PERIOD.

--LT

[transward (imported)]

Sorry, until I have compelling evidence that you are medically educated, I'm going to disagree. The only people I've seen in here supporting those higher levels at 750-900mg per week are those SAME people who are abusing the steroids.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't buy your argument.

Since I was the one that was challenged to show why this high dose was wrong or against medical advice, I went and looked it up (in books, not online) and have that backing up what I said.

These excessive amounts of testosterone will cause hepatoxicity (that's the liver folks) which means that these drugs are ruining the liver if taken in excessive amounts.

For the record excessive amounts is anything that is above and beyond the levels stated on the label of the drug, and the levels that have been stated in this thread are significantly above what the label says is to be used. It also doesn't matter which form of the drug you're using. The references I looked in did not make *any* distinction between oral, bucoccal, injected, trandermal, or other forms of the drug. They are all listed on the same warning lists.

Until you can actually cite and show me where the scientific community is supporting your claims that what I'm saying are not true, then I have to dismiss what you're saying. For the record, anything you're citing from steroid.com (the link you provided above) is from the community of people profiting on the abuse and illegal use of steroids. When I went to the link you supplied, the first thing that showed up on the page was an advertisement for a site selling oral steroids without a prescription. Hardly a ringing endorsement for convincing anyone that this is a medically safe thing to be doing.

I was educated in actual schools and in hospitals about this stuff. The only education I'm seeing from those of you that are saying I'm wrong seems to have been obtained in a locker room.

These people that are using testosterone in the amounts mentioned *will* have problems, regardless of route of administration.

PERIOD.

--LT

I am not a medical professional of any kind, but I have cooked for the Catholic Community Services' residential drug and alcohol program for thirteen years now so I am familiar with those who abuse drugs of all kinds.

The point is that despite the absolute statement in your last sentence, things are not quite so cut and dried in the real world. With all drugs as with sex hormones "your mileage may vary." We all know the long terms effects of alcohol abuse, but I have a fan club of elderly Native-American women who have been abusing alcohol at ridiculous levels for well over fifty years and are still reinforcing negative ethnic stereotypes. One of them has a granddaughter who is also in the program and that granddaughter has grown children of her own. I watched another resident with a genius level IQ drink himself to death of liver failure at the age of 40. But everyone seems to thank that they themselves will escape the effects of their usage.

That these steroid websites exist means there are sizable groups of people using them at these dosages. These drugs are too new to know exactly how many will develop the bad side effects. We are very bad at delayed gratification, but we are very good at ignoring delayed ill effects.

Transward

[butterflyjack (imported)]

I guess I'm from the old school...but why the f-ck do these people have to take these steroids to begin with? Unfair advantage by everyone? This crap has gotten way out of hand...I sense that the winning team/individual is the one that successfully evades detection of performance enhancing drugs... Not the one that trained hardest..and I think that Americans lead the pack in this regard...

Win..no matter what...Sad commentary.... The Dick Cheney way

dragonfly

[_g (imported)]

I guess I'm from the old school...but why the f-ck do these people have to take these steroids to begin with? Unfair advantage by everyone? This crap has gotten way out of hand...I sense that the winning team/individual is the one that successfully evades detection of performance enhancing drugs... Not the one that trained hardest..and I think that Americans lead the pack in this regard...

Win..no matter what...Sad commentary.... The Dick Cheney way

dragonfly

YES I agree with you, They want to look like Mr World now! without working on it for years. They will pay for it if they live to be old fats! with medical problems. If they start early in life they may suffer infertility, atrophy of testicles, gynecomastia (bitch tits) and have to be on HRT for the rest of there lives. (all are known published side effects of steroid abuse)

_g

[copecowboy (imported)]

Again, I think most of you have no clue what you are talking about on this issue (other than LT). The side effects are mitigated quite well with estrogen blockers, and the idea that I would have to take HRT for the rest of my life is preposterous. I cycle off for the same length of time that I am on (usually 12 weeks), and about 3 weeks after I cycle off, my test level returns to normal --I know, I had it checked a few times. The idea that one "will" develop any of these long term health issues is also preposterous --its like suggesting that because one smokes cigarettes, one will develop lung cancer. Surely there is a much higher probability, but I have known many smokers to die of old age in their 90s (just as i have known some to die from lung cancer in their 60s). Finally, it is a matter of personal liberty. There are many substances that are routinely accepted by society that are much more harmful --cigarettes, alcohol, too much sugar, etc... I am sure that these substances cause far more damage yearly than some guys with too much test in their system, and yet we routinely accept them. As a last point (I promise), if steroids are so harmful, why did the DEA, FDA, and the AMA oppose them being listed as controlled substances by Congress in 1990? (Not to mention that this is a strange way --usually the agency just lists a substance and there is little to no public input.) I realize that I am arguing with a brick wall here, but its my body and I will do what I want. I suppose that under your logic, Prohibition would still be in effect here in the U.S. The simple fact is that no matter the long term damage, guys are going to use the stuff, and the best way to mitigate the potential long term issues is with education --and that means using injectables only and common sense (like telling your doctor).

[Losethem (imported)]

I realize that I am arguing with a brick wall here, but its my body and I will do what I want. I suppose that under your logic, Prohibition would still be in effect here in the U.S. The simple fact is that no matter the long term damage, guys are going to use the stuff, and the best way to mitigate the potential long term issues is with education --and that means using injectables only and common sense (like telling your doctor).

I've said a few times through this thread you are entitled to do with your body as you see fit. I won't argue that point. All I wanted to do was point out the fallacy in the argument that no harm will come from people injecting mega doses of this medication. I've even noted what the likely outcomes are and I still get told I'm full of BS.

I know the medical science backs up my statements and that anyone wanting to go look up what I said will see that I am telling the truth about this.

At least I know I am coming to the conclusions I am through legitimate scientific analysis and medical education. The people on the other side seem to be gaining their education in a locker room, something I think is ill advised.

Again do what you wish to, I'm just not going to be supportive of your claims is all, because I know your claims are hearsay and not scientifically backed.

--LT

[_g (imported)]

Again, I think most of you have no clue what you are talking about on this issue (other than LT). The side effects are mitigated quite well with estrogen blockers, and the idea that I would have to take HRT for the rest of my life is preposterous. I cycle off for the same length of time that I am on (usually 12 weeks), and about 3 weeks after I cycle off, my test level returns to normal --I know, I had it checked a few times. The idea that one "will" develop any of these long term health issues is also preposterous --its like suggesting that because one smokes cigarettes, one will develop lung cancer. Surely there is a much higher probability, but I have known many smokers to die of old age in their 90s (just as i have known some to die from lung cancer in their 60s). Finally, it is a matter of personal liberty. There are many substances that are routinely accepted by society that are much more harmful --cigarettes, alcohol, too much sugar, etc... I am sure that these substances cause far more damage yearly than some guys with too much test in their system, and yet we routinely accept them. As a last point (I promise), if steroids are so harmful, why did the DEA, FDA, and the AMA oppose them being listed as controlled substances by Congress in 1990? (Not to mention that this is a strange way --usually the agency just lists a substance and there is little to no public input.) I realize that I am arguing with a brick wall here, but its my body and I will do what I want. I suppose that under your logic, Prohibition would still be in effect here in the U.S. The simple fact is that no matter the long term damage, guys are going to use the stuff, and the best way to mitigate the potential long term issues is with education --and that means using injectables only and common sense (like telling your doctor).

In the long term, the damages done to your testicles adds up and you will suffer from Hypogonadism as you put yourself in a state of hypergonadism for body building, repeatedly shutting down your testicles with high levels of androgens (steroids). But the simple fact that there is so much variability to the effects of steroid between each of us, it may never happen to you and with some it can happen within a year.