Hi rammer,

It is interesting to read how you felt testosterone changed your personality. It sounds as if it gave you more self confidence and enough aggressive drive to fight back when necessary and appropriate. If people were taking advantage of you and taking testosterone put a stop to that, that sounds like a good enough reason to me for you to keep taking it.

As a comparison, my aggressive level is nearly nonexistent. It has always been that way whether on depo provera or at my natural level of testosterone, which is in the middle of the normal range. I don't allow people to walk on me or take advantage of me. I have a way of diffusing problems with intellect, critical thinking, and sometimes trying to think one step ahead of it. In dealing with difficult problems, it is usually emotions that I fight from clouding my judgement and intellect. Luckily anger is rarely one of them. In fact, it is nearly impossible to make me mad. I have been with my other half coming up on 10 years this May and we have never really seriously fought. We have problems just like every couple, but we resolve them by being open and talking to each other. Sometimes it isn't resolve in one night, but we work through it.

When I try going up on testosterone, it's possible my level of aggression could go up. Considering that it is starting from about zero, I'm not too concerned. But because I so rarely feel anger, I find it a particularly nasty experience. Several times I have experienced significant anger and aggression when going through rapid cycling. The anger isn't because of anyone, anything, or any situation. It just comes from no where. I call this place of nowhere the vacuum. It is the source for the strongest emotions I have felt in life.

I loath anger. I find it a painful thing to experience. And it doesn't fit my personality. It may be the ultimate emotion that overrides any amount of rational thought. Obviously, I wouldn't be too happy about experiencing anger frequently. It is something that I will be keeping an eye on for sure.

It's entirely possible that changes could occur inside of me that are outside of my awareness. And so I agree that it is a good idea to be open to others. And listen to what they have to say should they start noticing changes, especially those changes they perceive as negative. I have a lot of self awareness, but everyone has their limits. In dealing with bipolar, I often ask those around me to let me know if they see something going on. Hypomania, an elevated mood, is an insidious beast that has a tendency to catch me off guard time and again. The irony is that no one has been successful in detecting it before I do. I think the reason for this is that it takes a BIG shift in my mood before people are able to recognize it. I liken a mood change to a big wave that crashes into my psyche. The brunt of the impact is absorbed. And people only notice the much smaller waves that rebounded out in my facial expressions and actions. It could also be that those who know me just accept a wider flavor of mood and behavior and accept it as part of my personality. I have yet to really figure this one out. Maybe part of it is that I don't necessarily act out on how I feel. If something is irrational, I acknowledge it but try not to express it in a way that is disruptive.

Anyway, all that I'm getting at is that I'm not for sure how much other people will notice internal changes caused by an increase in testosterone. I'll keep the lines of communication open and see what happens. Probably the thing I'm most concerned with is having my mood worsened as I adjust to a new hormone level. I know it is a risk, but the long term benefits outweigh it even if it does occur.

I also agree that I just won't have enough certainty to stay at a significantly lowered level of testosterone until I know for sure what is on the higher side. I think that's why this trial is particularly important. It will help broaden my knowledge and understanding of myself. And maybe more importantly I will know whether I can finally feel like a guy inside. It almost makes me cry when I say that. It pains me at the deepest levels to admit to other people that I don't feel like a guy inside. For once in my life I just want to be normal. It might not be possible, but I have to find out. If testosterone wasn't a controlled substance, I would have already tried it on my own. I know that's bad, so maybe it is good it is a controlled substance. It's ironic that in some ways estrogen is more dangerous when taken unsupervised and yet you can import it into the united states with no problems. I'm not discounting the potentially dangerous situation of a high red blood cell count and/or hemoglobin levels from too much testosterone. It just seems one is more dangerous to me than the other. I could be wrong. I don't claim to be a doctor.

The good thing is that I have little doubts about the root of my interest in castration. It's taken a long time to come to that understanding. I agree that there are many potential facets for the desire of castration. Some of them could hardly justify the risk of proceeding forward with it, such as if it was only a fetish. For me the desire will always be there until I find relief with this kind of incongruity that just keeps going on and on and on like the energizer bunny. God knows that I have tried to deal with this in virtually every other way over the last decade, and I have yet to find anything that helps.

I think that other peoples' expectations will also take time to fully incorporate. Just as I might exhibit some kind of psychosomatic response to taking testosterone, other peoples' expectations may create perceptions that don't really exist. I think time really is the key to sorting things out. Hormones are subtle in a way, but very significant. As a case in point on other's perceptions, I remember coming home from the doctor's office a couple days ago. My other half had just woken up and I had a big smile on my face. He looked at me squarely and said, "I can tell he shot you up with testosterone." I laughed and said that wasn't the case. I was just happy and relieved that I'm one step closer to starting on this journey to solving a complex problem.

I hope I don't sound like I am too much in a hurry. For me this problem has been driving me crazy for 15+ years. And I began to deal with it 5 years ago. And sought professional help about 6 months ago. I'm not looking for a quick answer. I'm sure it is going to take time to find the right level of testosterone whether it turns out to be on the high side or the low side.

I appreciate your advice and insight.

Hi feedback,

I'm sorry to hear that your situation became complicated as you unknowingly went through a significant drop in testosterone that played out for years. That sounds like quite an epic struggle. I find self awareness is the only thing that keeps me on track in life with my occasional struggles.

I have read that changes in hormone levels do not cause a change in sexual preference. It sounds like you are bisexual. I assume that didn't change because of going down on testosterone. Is that correct? While on depo provera, I never noticed even a slight change in sexual preference.

I also found that with a lowered testosterone level, I still wanted sex. Oddly, I'd say I enjoyed it even more. I know that seems a bit paradoxical on the surface, given that I didn't have an urge to get off. But it allowed me to feel way more connected and intimate with my other half and not just focused on getting off. The first time that we had sex when I was on depo provera, I wasn't for sure how I was going to feel about it. Sometimes we are pleasantly surprised in life.

Unfortunately my other half doesn't have the strongest sex drive in the world. I would feel a little more confident going down on testosterone if I knew that we weren't going to be less frequently intimate. I tend to always initiate things.

It's interesting you say that you are more submissive and gentler when you have less testosterone. I'm not sure I would say that about myself. Even when I was on depo provera for four months, it didn't affected me that way. I just felt closer to who I am inside normally.

I have been meaning to write about this, but I haven't gotten around to it until now. This isn't super related to this thread, but it doesn't really deserve one on its own either.

Whenever I have a very powerful orgasm, it feels amazingly great. But I start to feel bad after a few minutes. I feel down and drawn to take a hot shower. I often just stand under the shower head crying and sometimes bawling. It tends to last about 10 minutes and then it is gone like nothing happened. I don't have orgasms that rock my world all that often, so it isn't something that I frequently deal with hardly ever. I'm not even for sure what it is that I'm feeling when it happens. It has nothing to do with what I'm cognitively thinking about. It isn't like there is some moral issue and I'm suddenly struck with guilt and shame. I don't know what it is, but it is weird. LoL

If I have an orgasm that is pretty high on the scale, but not excessive, I can usually avoid feeling too bad by eating a piece or two of dark chocolate. Don't ask me why it helps. It sounds stupid even to me.

I know this *problem* is dumb and it doesn't bother me too much in the grand scheme of things. It's just so weird I thought I'd put it out there and see if anyone could identify with it. LoL. I'm guessing no. I'm just weird.

The reason this came to mind is that I decided to wait a few days to get off. My piercing was bothering me after moving my price albert from a 10ga captive ring to to an 8ga ring. I had one hell of an orgasm last night and subsequently felt horrible for about 10 to 15 minutes. I decided to mention it to my other half. I have never mentioned it to anyone before because it just seemed silly, stupid, or maybe was my imagination.

I'm open to speculation. Or if you just want to laugh, that's fine too.

I do not know if this information is of any value to you, but you are not the only one. I have had both a girlfriend and a boyfriend that had the same reaction to a powerful orgasm. They became sad and cried afterwards then went on as if nothing unusual had happened. The boyfriend said he felt guilt. The girlfriend only said it was normal for her. --FLO--

Uncle Flo (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:50 am I do not know if this information is of any value to you, but you are not the only one. I have had both a girlfriend and a boyfriend that had the same reaction to a powerful orgasm. They became sad and cried afterwards then went on as if nothing unusual had happened. The boyfriend said he felt guilt. The girlfriend only said it was normal for her. --FLO--

Yeah, it helps a little; It just means that I'm not that unique. I could understand how guilt might be a cause for feeling bad afterward. But in the absence of that it is a little mysterious.

The only other noteworthy thing is that my normal orgasms are a lot more powerful than anyone else's I have witnessed. Maybe too much of a good thing really is a bad thing? LoL. I can live with that explanation.

guy26 (imported) wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:08 pm feedback,

How long did it take for you to move into acceptance? I can't imagine being forced into low testosterone without choice. I could see it causing a lot of distress.

You seem to dislike the behavior that testosterone brings on in you and yet you go on it from time to time. What desirable traits and characteristics draw you to try it again and again?

Well I did not notice any change between having working testicles to non-working testicles, but for my sex drive going away and the normal side effects of no hormones.

_g

I found I started to look at people differently, not sexually but I saw beauty in both sexes which I never did before. Maybe it's because I see myself as non sexed but I never looked twice at a man before and now I find I am attracted to both sexes. I have never acted on this but it intrigues me none the less.

feedback (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:27 pm I found I started to look at people differently, not sexually but I saw beauty in both sexes which I never did before. Maybe it's because I see myself as non sexed but I never looked twice at a man before and now I find I am attracted to both sexes. I have never acted on this but it intrigues me none the less.

Has anyone else here experienced some fluidity in their sexual preference based on changing hormone levels? I don't disbelieve feedback at all. I'm really curious since it seems to contradict what I have read in peer reviewed journals. Please don't ask me to site the reference. LoL. It might take a while to find it again.

I'm kind of curious about how others find acceptance from others about being castrated or about having a GID related problem. I took a chance and opened up to a high school friend. She responded well. I'm not going to give you what she wrote, but I will give you most of what I wrote back. I think it holds some value in terms of seeing how I am finding acceptance.

"… I appreciate that you are so accepting. It means a lot to me knowing that you didn't freak out or think I'm totally crazy. I admit I am occasionally crazy. LoL. But I try to keep it to a minimum.

I have told my mom, my other half, my therapist, my family doctor, tons of anonymous people online. And I have told a handful of people in real life that know me from a more neutral stand point such as yourself. Surprisingly from my perspective, the more neutral people have also told me they see me as more docile or less aggressive or something along those lines. And so far none of them have seemed all that surprised about the situation. Both of those things have been fairly surprising to me.

You asked if I was surprised by people's reaction. I was most surprised by my family doctor's reaction. He didn't really believe me when I first approached him about this problem. He seemed to think it was some kind of extreme bipolar related issue and not related to GID at all. He has accepted my therapist's judgement, but I really want him to understand. I don't know why it is important to me that he understands my problem and not just prescribe medication. I am going to ask my therapist what he thinks about offering my family doctor all of the recently stuff I have written on this issue. I hate to think about putting him a position where he feels he HAS to read everything. But if he has the interest to do so, I'd like to give him that opportunity. Maybe it comes down to wanting him to feel that he is doing the right thing. And right now I feel that he is a little uncertain about that.

My other half has generally known about this problem since we found out together that I have bipolar. This issue is what ultimately setup a chain reaction of events to getting diagnosed with bipolar type 2. My other half has had about 5 years to deal with it thus far. I think initially it was a complete shock and he was really upset and hurt by it all. He seen my desire for castration as wanting to hurt myself and it made him incredibly sad and angry. He has mostly dealt with the issue, but it sometimes still troubles him. For a long time he liked to joke that I had neuticals, which are fake balls that vets can put in pets after their castration. LoL. We seen an episode of something and it has stuck with us ever since. In some ways he deals with it by joking around, but we have also had serious conversations about it. He wants me to be happy, but he would prefer that I don't change too much. Strangely when I asked him recently if he would prefer that I were more or less masculine, he doesn't have a preference. That is kind of surprising to me.

My mom has also been aware of my drive toward castration ever since I got diagnosed with bipolar. A few weeks after being diagnosed, I was manic and thought it would be funny to send her my whole journal. If you think I have written a lot recently, it is nothing compared to the volume that I have written from the beginning. The word count on my journal is around 126k+ words and maybe it was around 50k at the time. So yeah. Um. She was a just a little concerned upon reading it. Initially the stuff I wrote wasn't to be shared with anyone so it was harsh, unfiltered, raw, and to the point. Overall, it has been a worthwhile experience and it has brought me closer to my mom. Considering that I'm the furtherest away and see her the least, on the surface it would be surprising to know that we are probably the closest out of my brothers.

It has surprised me how accepting people have been of me. I expected something harsh. Maybe it's because I don't look like I have a problem or maybe I don't act really feminine. I'm not for sure. Any kind of gender bending tends to be met with harsh results in our society. Whatever it is, I swear it is the same reason I didn't get picked on in high school. If you know what that reason was, I'd be happy to hear it. If going up on testosterone just fixes everything and it happens to make me more masculine physically and/or mentally, I'd imagine that people would be more easily accepting of me than if I lowered it. I don't know though. I could be wrong though. I'm not super masculine as it is and I have never gotten flack for it. Oddly, I have felt that people have been more protective of me because of not being all that masculine. I have no idea how to describe that impression other than more directly how I felt when I was in Guatemala.

Most people don't have the time or make it a priority to fully explore their feelings and the difficulties they face in life. Often times more important immediate concerns seize their attention.*And lord knows that our society has every distraction available at every opportunity. But sometimes it isn't really an option either, such as when you have kids sucking up all your time. At some point though, to be a healthy individual we all need someone to intently listen to what is on our mind. No one is an island all unto themselves able to withstand all that life has to throw at them.

...

It's okay if you can't offer any additional insight into this problem or whatever process that I end up going through to reach a resolution. Sometimes it just helps me to share my story to others and get their intuition and reaction. Sometimes just having someone to listen to is helpful all by itself. I have called my mom a lot recently and she just listens. She is understanding, but she doesn't always have a lot to say. It isn't that she doesn't care or want to participate in the conversation, it's just that she doesn't know what to say.

It's funny that you say I'm an expert in this area. I don't feel like I am. I am becoming an expert on myself, but I'd be hard pressed to speak about others that have this problem. I hope to meet some of my peers here at the very end of August. There is a big gathering in Minneapolis, MN this year.

I'm not for sure I could ask for anything more than unconditional support. That means a lot to me! "

Now that I've shared, I'd be happy to hear about your experience.

Today I met with my therapist. It was pretty easy going. We talked about other people's reaction and how usually the less knowledgeable tended to ask me if I'm worried that I might become aggressive with more testosterone. The answer is no. But after talking awhile with him, my therapist offered an interesting way of looking at aggression. He likened it to a continuum that ranges from passive to assertive to outright aggressive behavior. The words passive, assertive, and aggressive are just labels along the continuum to categorize a person's behavior in response to certain kinds of stimuli. I thought it was insightful. I have never thought of it that way.

If you have had your testosterone level changed for one reason or another, do you feel that going up on testosterone moved you higher in the continuum? And conversely did going down lower you on the continuum? Raymar mentioned that it worked for him in this regard.

In having tried depo provera in the past, I never felt that it changed how I felt or my behavior in terms of aggression. We shall see what it means for me to go up on testosterone in this regard. My guess is that it will have little or no affect. I wouldn't mind if it actually went up at least some in this regard.

Anyway, I'm bringing the idea up again because I think it is a novel way of looking at aggression.

On a side note, I'm still hoping to get a call back from the doctor's office today stating that they got my blood work back and that I can start TRT. If they don't call back, I'll try again on Monday or Tuesday.

Nope, I didn't get a call back. Have to wait a little while longer...