Every religion claims that unbelievers are on the wrong side of god(s), and will get stomped by size 1,000,000 Extra Wide feet in hob-nailed boots as a result. That's the stick. Believers can "let the good times roll." That's the carrot. They're all the same.

I'll make you a deal. For every ten bucks you send me, I'll return a chit good for One Helluva Good Time after you die. These can also be exchanged for beer, if you go bars in certain parts of New Jersey.

I still think that a major attraction to religion is also partly why I'm attracted to this site at present (no offence to you guys....you're terrific). Loneliness. It is true that bad humans create bad God's, but it's this evilness in humanity that probably encourages many to keep their beliefs and in some cases strengthen them. Because their (imaginary or not) God will always be with them, while humans (that they've learned not to trust) won't necessarily be.

If I was with a terrific partner then I wouldn't be spending as much time on the EA. It's my strongest belief that your partner be the most important thing to you (and then also kids if you have them, adopt,). Others are irrelevant in a way, while also still being relevant too (it's complicated).

This sort of honesty from me has hurt my parents and brother a great deal this year. It's hurt them a lot more than the religion stuff. Because they hate that to some extent they can't help me and/or make me happy. This I understand.

I am no longer a muslim Eromel-1. Nevertheless, asalamalykum.

Do you think that I initiated this thread to convert muslims?!

A funny social idea indeed. I might add this to my ideas for my comedy project.

I am a pretty beautiful person........in my not so humble opinion!

I'm guessing that you are suggesting that it was my fate "providence" to see Allah and be guided by him? That's certainly the way that I viewed it (because I wanted to) at the time. There was no real logic behind it, but I can understand why it all happened. In a way I wish that I could still believe in Allah........I never got to the point in really believing in the whole heaven and hell thing or agreeing with other things like homosexuality being a sin, but there is certainly a kind of comfort with believing in a greater deity.

I tried to push on with my belief even when the relationship fell through. Though my open mindedness (which allowed the possibility to open my mind to God) allowed me to look at all the possibilities (that is one of my main mantra's). Even when I wanted to keep believing (I was of the mindset that Allah existed but because I didn't agree with everything my theory was that Muhammad and possibly others had put their own spin on some things in the Qur'an on top of the "word of God".......the Qur'an is very repetitive and pointless in its second half, so I used the 'logic' that Allah had stopped given Muhammad advice because he went against Him.....or some such thing!) I watched a documentary from Richard Dawkins (my parents wanted me to watch it) and had to agree with most of it. I was only religious for about a year and about half of this was not as a muslim, but just a believer in God.

On the subject of free will, I don't really think that I have free will. Fate, in a way, exists. I believe that I am controlled by women mostly (not that this is necessarily a bad thing). Even now I still am.

A woman is my God!

Your message is really lovely Eromel-1. Thank you for it.

Your third point is a bit above my capabilities of understanding!

Actually it feels like I'm putting myself on tial a bit with all of my rambling.

A-1, I don't mind being laughed at.......too much.

With the sex thing I think it's a good idea to make the needs of both partners similar. So for a guy to be on something that reduces his sex drive to about the level of the woman sounds good....in theory.

I wonder if gay relationships are generally happier because of their similar sexual needs (as in how much they want it?)?

Thanks for the info River on our religious figures. I assumed it was definite that Jesus existed. It is said that Moses wrote the five books of the Torah, though many believe that many hands wrote it (human hands). It is interesting your point about the Egyptians keeping no records of Moses.

I like to find out things about religion from time to time. It is an important part of our 'history' even if much of it is dubious.

Moi621 makes good points. I saw a doco on Noah's ark. It found great evidence that the great flood did occur.

Muslims believe that all people are born as muslims. They sin and/or go their separate ways afterwards. Yes, many times in the Qur'an it is mentioned that I will burn in hell for converting out of Islam. But this relates to following Allah in adult life and then going against Him. From what I read they don't view other BELIEVERS as going to hell.......perhaps just a lesser heaven!

Another thing that is illogical about some of the actions of muslims is when they take matters into their own hands. It would make no sense (or even less) for a muslim to kill me because what I've done is a lethal offence. I would have thought that the point of a hell was that Allah will take care of everything in a so called just way in the afterlife. Some might firmly believe that I should and will burn in hell (as they would most people of the EA for their views!), but if they were 100% firm in that belief then they wouldn't feel the need to cause me any harm themselves.

Oh yeah. The pork thing is something else I couldn't get my head around!

Some reasonable sites on Islam are:

www.islam.com

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/index.html

The latter, whilst harsh, is better. It is ex muslims telling the truths of their religion. There is plenty of relevant information on here. Only this year did I check it out.

The first article is perhaps the best read. It is about science and contradictions. In my first exploration of Islam I read a book by a doctor called Maurice Bucailee. He is spoken about in here. I was unaware that there was so much directly false information in the Qur'an. I thought this was an advantage that Islam had over Christianity (Islam being more careful to not say things that could be 'proven' as wrong).

moi621 (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:31 pm Highly recommend, Exodus Decoded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Decoded

"The Exodus Decoded is a 2006 History Channel documentary created by Jewish Canadian filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici and the producer/director James Cameron."

The most wonderful point Simcha made was if two thousand years from World War 2, archeologist are looking for evidence of it and if they are off by fifty years, to 1990, they would find no evidence of World War 2.

I believe there was an Exodus from Egypt. Not as a matter of faith.

Just as I believe there was a World War 2.

AS far as the decedents of Ishmael, my cousins, it bothers me that one can only leave Islam via death. Being converted out of Islam is a lethal offense.

I believe this unifies their conservatives and moderates, like avoiding pork. No opting out allowed.

Let Moi know if mistaken.

Thanks

Moi, there is many records of WWII from several different places and countries, including a debt from the Germans that they are still paying. There is nothing other then the bible on Moses. That was my point, it takes more then one reference to make it possible. There are several references to Pontius Pilate including one found in the holy lands, there is no inscription or record of Jesus. Yet we know of many who lived in that period of time, have statue likenesses of them etc. This is even true of the time of Moses, we have many examples of Ramses II but nothing of Moses. Many fiction writers today use real people and places to add there fictional people to. Back to WWII, there is a lot of proof that it happened as battle fields fade the records still exist. In the case of Moses and Jesus, the only records that exist are the bible. The bible is a book of fiction as no other records exist to validate the stories in it.

There is more proof that earth was one big continent called Pongee then there is that Moses ever existed, that dinosaurs walked the earth, or great cats we call the saber tooth tigers then Moses.

That is my point, you must take religion on faith, the reason you must do this is there is no proof of any of it. You talk about god long enough and soon you create him and through that faith that there is a god, you have one.

From that point of view I believe in Mother Earth as the god mother. I can touch her, see her, taste her, she was their to hold me when I was born and I will return to her when I die. She is real, she lives forever, she must be a god.

That is the whole point, for each person religion is a very personal thing, and just as you KNOW Moses was real, I know the Earth is Mother. Who is right? more important, does it matter?

"History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion - i.e., none to speak of."

Finally, I will defend your right to what ever religion you believe in, if its important to you then I respect that. The same holds true then for me to not believe in any religion using that same logic.

River

Athiests

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able, and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is is neither able nor willing?

Then why call him GOD.

Epicurus, 33 A.D.

If Epicurus knew this in 33AD, what has change?

River

Percy Bysshe Shelley had it right in Ozymandias, his sonnet from 1818 -

I met a traveller from an antique land

Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone

Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,

Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown

And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command

Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.

And on the pedestal these words appear:

`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:

Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,

The lone and level sands stretch far away".

Pontius Pilate and Ramses II were men of power. Moses was born a slave and adopted by the Pharoah's household, which must have numbered hundreds. Jesus was an itinerant preacher. After thousands of years, statues and written words (scarce back then) survive only for the "great."

I'm an atheist, but I see no reason to doubt the existence of Moses or Jesus.

Riverwind (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:18 am Yes I have noticed it starting to wander.

Religion is something that is personal something you receive from your parents, meaning if they are "X" religion you are brain washed into that religion as well. Some people actually convert to a religion, others opt out of religion all together seeing it for what I believe is the real purpose, to control you and get some of your hard earned money. Its very good at targeting the poor, hit the people that can afford it the least with promises of a better life when you are dead because this one sucks.

Some people need to be told what to eat, how to pray, and the worst one of all, how many virgins you get when you die, give me a break, mostly its how much money to give.

In the words of the late great Robert A. Heinlein,

"History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it."

and

"Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."

Taken from Time Enough for Love - Intermission.

When science dates the Universe at about 13.5 Billion years and our Sun at about 8.5 and Earth about 8 Billion years, and that man arrived about 3.5 to 4 million years ago its hard to believe that some deity did it in 6 days. Mythology, every culture on earth every group or pocket of people has a mythology that will tell you how they came to be the chosen people of the earth, the Bible has Genesis. Other demi-gods came later. One other thing is true, about all religions, each has a founder that everything is based on and nothing has happened sense, The Jews had Moses, Christians Jesus, Muslims Mohammed and nothing has happened sense, all three are the visions of these three men controlling lives to this day, you can add others to that list of three, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones (but his religion died with him) and others, each leaving there mark on people and screwing them for all time. TV evangelists are the very worst of the bunch, they all say the same thing,

Don't forget to keep this ministry going, send money.

Yes, the real reason for religion, to take your money.

Religion aside, no matter what you do in life or what you believe, if you want to know the truth follow the money, now we know the real color of GOD, Green.

River

That's a very harsh assessment. Some might even call it offensive. Of course, the word 'offensive' could have two meanings. It could mean that the best defense is a good 'offense'. In other words, since religions are so powerful, defending one's atheism against them is useless. Better to attack the attacker with as harsh a put down as possible. Anyway, that's the way I read your assessment.

But religions are just fan clubs. God didn't create religion, man did. So you are attacking the fans of a God who, for all we know, is totally indifferent to both you and his fans. You're telling other people how foolish they are to believe what they believe, but the problem with that is that nobody really knows 'the truth'. So how can you tell other people that their beliefs are wrong? They could tell you the same thing, and from a distance that would just sound like schoolyard taunts going back and forth, back and forth.

DAMMIT, gregrowlerson!

If you decide to reduce your sex drive, DO IT FOR YOURSELF, not for a damned woman... CAPISH?

Now, on to the business at hand...

OH! THE FORCE OF THE POWERFUL LOGIC OF THE STATEMENT...

YOU CANNOT PROVE THAT IT IS FALSE, SO IT MUST BE TRUE...

They tried that when they wanted to teach "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" and it WILL NOT HOLD UP IN COURT...

NO, no need to doubt. Just like SUPERMAN, they have comic books about them. Now, On to the FRED PHELPS (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18477) thread... or you can read on in this post but I would not if I were you. AND... IF YOU DO, For heaven's sake DO NOT CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS... :shakemitk



YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Now, shall we begin?





BUT EXCUUUSSE MEEEE... !...IF I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MUHAMMAD RODE TO HEAVEN ON THE BACK OF A WHITE HORSE FROM THE DOME OF THE ROCK.

IF GOD IS GOD THEN WHY DID HE NEED THE GODDAMNED HORSE? GOD COULD HAVE JUST FLEW HIM THERE WITHOUT THE HORSE! IN ADDITION, IF THERE ARE HORSES IN HEAVEN WHO CLEANS UP THE HORSESHIT?

now...THIS is about where to find the "TRUTH" in scriptures... (http://www.jesusandmo.net/?s=hanging&key=transcript)



SO why don't we just kiss and make up? (http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_ar ... ckFace.jpg)

Later that day, at the beach... (http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_ar ... -01-26.jpg)

IT only gets worse... SO PLEASE!... Don't CLICK HERE... (http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_ar ... _mohammed/)

WELL, River, you may now close this STUPID thread... (http://images8.cpcache.com/product/1105 ... -White.jpg)

...this horseshit has went far enough, but it ain't got to heaven yet...

No not yet,

River

Riverwind (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:17 am Athiests

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able, and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is is neither able nor willing?

Then why call him GOD.

Epicurus, 33 A.D.

If Epicurus knew this in 33AD, what has change?

River

I heard upon his dry dung heap

That man cry out who cannot sleep.

"If God is God He is not Good.

If God is Good He is not God;

the play J.B. by Archibald MacLeish.

Transward

If god were real, it would be manifest. This would be the most important fact in the universe, its truth evident at all times and in all things. Instead, we quibble. There are endless grounds for "theologians" and divines to parse the nature and intentions of the gods. What more convincing evidence could there be for atheism than the utter failure of theists to agree upon even the most basic aspects of faith?

What we know is that most people crave a life ordered by superior being(s), whom we hope will be wise and benevolent. This starts with Mommy and ends for some with a celestial Daddy, for others with Barry in the White House. We like to believe that someone, somewhere, somehow, knows what everything means, and where it's going, and that there's a happy ending, no matter how tough things get. Happy thoughts.

But what we know is that we eventually croak and get eaten by maggots. Sorry. To make the best of our lives, we need to start with truth. In the end, Mommy won't kiss our boo-boos and make them better, and there's no merciful god who loves us. Sorry. Now go out and lead a good life. It's what you've got.