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Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:19 pm
by moi621 (imported)
My Mexy office helper opted out of the culture some time ago.

She has three children and demands academic excellence as caught her husband off guard.

People of New Orleans choose to live well, though maybe not as long.

I would not force a Seattle life style on them.

Would you? Or judge them, less then . . . ?

It is called, Freedom.

Moi

Viva la differance !

Viva La Raza !

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:41 pm
by transward (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:19 pm People of New Orleans choose to live well, though maybe not as long.

I would not force a Seattle life style on them.

Would you? Or judge them, less then . . . ?

Moi

Viva la differance !

Viva La Raza !

My dear Moi,

You are sadly misinformed about our ability to party. I will have you know that neither our food nor our orgies are sub par. True they are not quite as flamboyent as New Orleans, though we do have our characters. See article about my friend Purple Mark

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/318268_purplemark02.html

Purple Mark, who is actually wearing orange these days, was sipping a Cosmopolitan a little too red in the shade one evening last week on Broadway. He waved at a man staring from the next booth. He gets that a lot, he says. People often stop and want to take a picture of him.

Sometimes, he's not in the mood, and he tells them so. But every so often, they take the picture anyway.

Sporting his trademark dyed hair and beard, Mark Wirth, aka Purple Mark, walks along Broadway on Capitol Hill.

But such is life when you're lanky and just over 6 feet tall and your beard's dyed purple and sometimes you wear a purple hat and a purple suit. Other times the hat, the suit, the beard are all green.

On the Capitol Hill streets -- where so many people stand out that they blend in -- Purple Mark still stands out.

Transward

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:10 pm
by thearmchairprof (imported)
bobover3 (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:55 pm Shameful outpouring of prejudices.

Always suspicious of generalizations about people's "cultures." Most often, these are cartoons constructed to take the place of real knowledge.

I'm sorry if I may have seemed prejudiced, although please understand I live in a city with one of the largest latino populations in the U.S. I lived for years in a neighborhood where spanish was seemingly the predominant spoken language, and I have many friends there that are first, second and third generation immigrants. During my time in which i lived in the "barrio", I have learned to understand and speak (some) spanish. I have had numerous conversations with my friends about the subject of immigration, and latin american politics. A minister I am close friends with who is a second generation immigrant from the dominican republic, led and organized the immigration marches for my city when bush was in office. I am speaking from experience, not from the lens of a microscope, and most of my friends from the barrio would agree with my opinions.

Also to add, and I hope as not to offend anyone here but instead to hopefully clear things up, but I have noticed from other people I have spoken with from the midwest and the northeast a different attitude and near apprehensiveness when speaking on issues of race and culture. I hope that noone is offended by this observation, but its just something I have noticed. As a military child I moved around much, and have seen differences in places I have lived.

Here where I currently live there really isn't any time to NOT talk about the elephant in the room if that sort of makes sense. I currently work a food service industry job where caucasians are a minority, and open conversations about race and culture are accepted and not considered faux paux.

My observation has been that in a city in the deep south like Houston, where it is a literal melting pot of all colors and kinds, it is rather difficult to uphold and talk about things with the many different people you encounter without sounding prejudiced or racist. This is mutually understood between whatever party is involved and ironically I have found most people in my city to be some of the least racist due to this circumstance.

We have a predominantly white college campus that is in the middle of one of the worst and most poverty stricken "african american" neighborhoods in the United States! Imagine that!

Prejudice and stereotypes can definitely be used to hurt others, but also there ARE cultural differences between different peoples in America. Culture and race is something that human beings naturally identify with, and to pretend that this natural phenomenon is non-existent is rather absurd.

Wiki:

"The word prejudice is most commonly used to refer to a preconceived judgment toward a people or a person because of race, social class, gender, ethnicity, age, disability, political beliefs, religion, sexual orientation or other personal characteristics."

I would be surprised to find one person in the world who is NOT prejudiced.

I'm sure many others view people from Texas as being "red necked tea-party racists"

Not necessarily true

Cheers :D
A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:43 pm So, it does not matter how many walls you build or laws that you pass Mexicans will still find a way to come here. They will come legally if they can afford it or illegally if they cannot.

Right on brotha, so so true.

I honestly hadn't considered the politics of colonization for places like Mexico and South America, and this makes sense.

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:31 am
by Riverwind (imported)
I would like to add one more thing to this thread, my ex-wife's grandfather was an Mexican farm worker, did it for years and saved every penny he could, he ended up owning his own home, actually 3 of them all in east San Jose, my mother in law was born and raised on the Indian reservation in Colorado, one of 9 kids, each one started very poor, big catholic family. Each moved into the middle class via hard work. This is the same story for everybody who comes to this country, be it Italians, Irish, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, you name it. The reason we still see this with the Mexican is because it has never stopped, there still coming to start a new life. There kids will be the ones moving into that middle class and the generation after that most likely wont even speak Spanish. They will no longer marry another Mexican but a gringo, like me.

Its interesting being the white sheep of the family and trying to be excepted, but not fatal.

River

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:15 pm
by A-1 (imported)
Land Grants... (http://americanaffairs.suite101.com/art ... ow-america)

How Land Grants Helped Grow America

Jun 16, 2010 Leslie McCloud

Land grants helped grow the American economy. Throughout history, gifts of land or land grants have been used by government to grow its communities and create commerce.

A land grant contract outlines the gift of public property to a lesser government entity or corporation. The land grant is historically reserved for public use of universities, colleges, railroads, airports and farmland. During the early days of the United States, land grants were used to reward Revolutionary War soldiers for their service, support publicly funded schools and to build transportation systems and farmland.

Cash Poor but Land Rich

The newly formed federal government was cash poor and land rich. At least 45 million acres of land are donated by the U. S. government during the 20th century, with the idea to grow the nation by issuing land grants to states and private companies. Giving land to start schools was important to grow a literate republic and good citizens. Land was donated for railroads as towns and cities grew.

States and local governments today issue land grant contracts of public land, like for airports, still with the idea of economic growth for communities.

The Revolutionary War and Land Grants

Land grants were made to Revolutionary War soldiers and to schools to encouraged settlement, expansion and development in the early United States, with a debate centered around the division of western coastal lands.

During the time of the Revolutionary War, anyone who is deemed capable and willing to carry out the plans and agenda of growing the country is gifted a land grant contract. It was a mutual fulfilling agreement.

The Homestead Act

Large tracts of land were issued to settlers who went west to develop towns and cities. The federal government granted land to private industry to develop a national transportation system, in addition to giving land for farming, education and benefits for war veterans. The government acquired this land during numerous wars and trades with Native Americans. This processes was eventually named the Homestead Act. It officially allowed individuals on public land the opportunity to earn the deed to it if they worked the land. Much of this land was developed into rich farmland to feed a growing nation.

Types of Land Grants

There are three types of land grants: private, community and hybrid. A private grant is owned by one or many as private property. The owner can in turn sell this property or parcel it out. Bigger tracts of land given to a large group usually happened with early Southwestern settlers. Hybrid land grants are tracts of land given to a small group with the stipulation to settle the land to create towns and cities.

These land grants have to be requested from state or federal government. There has to be a process where the pros and cons have to be examined before granting or rejecting the land grant.

Modern Day Land Grant Contracts

According to the U.S. Department of the Interior Bureau of Land Management, the Homestead Act stopped in 1976. The last legal homesteading of public lands by the federal government was more than 10 years ago in Alaska.

A 2006 Southeast Farm Press article said the elimination of land grants is a "death spiral" for farmers and land grant universities. It is fueled by a loss of revenue and interest in agriculture. With the emphasis no longer on agriculture education and research, there is no support system set up to maintain the southern land grant schools or farmers, unless it serves a for profit purpose.

However a CNN Money.com article gives hope.

School districts and economic development groups in rural Kansas, Las Vegas and North Dakota are donating tracts of land and even down payment assistance in the spirit of the original American colonists--to grow their community.

Read more at Suite101: How Land Grants Helped Grow America http://americanaffairs.suite101.com/art ... z0s6oiJ0qj

As River mentioned some of the American Territories were acquired from Mexico. Of course, sometimes these lands came complete with people. (Mexicans. eg., New Mexico, San Diego, etc.)

It is ironic, (ridiculous) that we see Mexico as anything but a sister country.

Click Here (http://www.southwestbooks.org/nutshell.htm)

Land Grants in a Nutshell

Lecture Notes. © 1997 Malcolm Ebright

I. Types of Land Grants

1. Private Grants. Entire grant is owned by one (or a few) individuals as their private property. After meeting the conditions of the grant, the grantees could sell the entire grant (note that regarding sales of smaller parcels to be occupied by the purchaser, the custom of right of first refusal was often followed).

2. Community Grants. Large tracts of land granted to a substantial number of people (usually from 10 to 100. Both Mora grant and early version of TA (Tierra Amarilla ) grant had 76 initial settlers - see Ebright Tierra Amarilla Grant pp. 32-43 for examples of grant documents.

3. Hybrid or Quasi-Community grants. Large tracts granted to one or a few individuals with the requirement that the land be settled. Grantee induces a large group of settlers to move onto the grant and gives them each a small private lot for house (solar de casa) and garden (suerte) and grants them rights to use the remaining land for grazing, gathering fire wood, building materials, herbs, wild game, etc. but this arrangement not in writing.

II. Steps in the Land Grant Process

1. Petition. Either by an individual or a small group (for a private grant) or by a larger group (usually at least 10) for a community grant. No particular form was followed, but the need for land (to feed their families/to graze their livestock) was usually mentioned as was a general description of the land requested (TA: a tract on the banks of the Chama River known as Tierra Amarilla). Sometimes more specific boundaries were given as with TA grant in later documents N. Navajo river, S. Nutrias River, E. ridge of the mt. range, W. a line from the Puerto to the Laguna de los Caballos.

2. Report by Government Official. (usually either the alcalde or the governor) Report from local officials as to the nature of the land requested (whether able to support a community (for example, TA grant said could support 500 families) and the qualifications of the petitioners (they were supposed to be landless).

A. Sometimes this step was eliminated. Particularly in the early 1700's, petition could be granted by governor subject to alcalde's determination that land was vacant (Mendinueta grants)

B. Sometimes there were multiple layers of bureaucracy involved in this step (governor referred to territorial deputation legislative body which referred it to the ayuntamiento or local council).

C. In rare cases objections were raised by petitioners and further reports were rendered (TA grant petitioner objected to ayuntamiento's report so ayuntamiento appointed a three man commission, then adopted the report of the commission.

3. Grant by Governor. Essential element in a valid grant. When claims were submitted to US Courts in second half of the nineteenth century it was necessary to prove that this document had been issued even if the proof was sometimes indirect, as when original document had been lost.

A. Grant document would establish (along with the act of possession) whether it was a private or community grant

B. Grant would establish the boundaries

C. Grant (along with act of possession) would specify conditions that grantees must meet.

4. Act of Possession. Alcalde would go to the land with the petitioners and perform ceremony of delivery of possession (plucking weeds, casting stones and shouting "Long live the king - or Mexican government"

A. Boundaries of the grant were pointed out vaguely. If natural features were used, they could generally be located (e.g. Mora grant: N. Ocate River, S. Sapello river) but other boundary calls were less precise (Antón Chico: the Salino Spring and the Alto de los Esteros, where the river forms a cañon, where the men were killed). In some rare cases a more precise survey occurred, but that was in the early 1850's in the Chihuahua acquisition governed by the Gadsden treaty.

B. Private tracts were measured and distributed to individual settlers for house lots and farm tracts. Title to these tracts was acquired after possession from 4-10 years depending on the grant.

C. Other non-privatized land within the grant (as well as water) was declared to be common to all the settlers, for grazing, wood-gathering, etc.

D. Other conditions were specified such as 1) possession of weapons to defend against Indian attacks 2) work of construction of a plaza and opening of acequias to be performed by all settlers

III. Hispanic Land Measurement

1. Documents vs. Physical Facts. While documents were important in establishing land grants, it was the physical facts of the use of the land that cemented the combination of documents and land use into a firm title.

2. Measurement by Varas. The first step in land use was the measurement of private tracts by varas. A vara was an imprecise measurement (as were other Hispanic land measurements) because all were tied to concrete situations of everyday life. A vara was a pace of a grown man, a league was the distance traveled on horseback over level ground at a normal gait for one hour, a fanega was like a bushel basket, and an almud was 1/12 of a fanega.

3. Standardized Measurements. Mexican law standardized these measurements so that a league was 5,000 varas, and a sitio was a square with each side being a league; the pueblo league was four square leagues.

4. Vara in Practice. These linear measurements all depended for their accuracy on a standardized vara. Even though Mexican law set the vara at three feet, in practice, the vara was based on a vara stick in the possession of the alcalde, or local official of each jurisdiction. Since these were not uniform, the vara varied from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in New Mexico.

5. Territorial Varas. In Territorial Period New Mexico the vara was determined to be 33 inches based on a compromise. When Surveyor General William Pelham was faced with surveying land grants involving measurements in varas he was required to research surveying practice in New Mexico. In Texas Stephen Austin had established the vara at 33 1/3 inches, while in California it was held by the courts to slightly more than 33 inches. (Hall, Four Leagues of Pecos, pp. 84-85).

6. Pueblo Varas. Pelham then examined the vara measuring sticks in the possession of Indian Pueblos and found that they varied from 32.3 inches to 33.3 inches, so he compromised at 33 inches. Even today some deeds describing land in Texas are still measured in varas.

IV. Land Grants Disputes during the Spanish and Mexican Periods

1. Disputes Common. Since many early 18th century grants made without notice to adjoining landowners and because of vague boundary descriptions, boundary disputes were common during the first half of the 18th century.

2. Disputes between Spaniards and Indian pueblos. Many of these disputes were between Spaniards and Indian pueblos. The Spanish grant might specify that it was bounded by the pueblo, but at this early date the pueblos' boundaries had not been determined. Soon the pueblo league became recognized as the amount to which a pueblo was entitled (5,000 varas in each direction from the cross in the center of the cemetery).

3. Pueblo League Disputes. The measuring of this "pueblo league", often a contentious affair, became the centerpiece of these lawsuits. Measurement was done by a rope called a cordel that was supposed to measure 50 or 100 varas, but measurements with the cordel were anything but uniform.

4. Cordel Measurement. Measurements by the cordel were performed in the presence of representatives of both Spaniards and Indians. Arguments occurred over whether to use the 50 or 100 vara cordel (the 100 vara was preferred by the Indians when the terrain was uneven) whether it should be dry or wet or waxed, and how it should be measured.

5. Waxed Cordel. In the 1780's, governor Anza ordered a waxed cordel to be used but the parties could find no wax. Wax was supposed to be used to minimize stretching since the Indians were in the habit of both wetting and then stretching the measuring cordel to the point that it sometimes broke and had to be spliced back together.

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:18 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
On my mothers side of the family going back 6 or 7 generations a land grant was given by Spain, it was given to the Foxen's and you can find it just north east (I think) of Santa Barbara, California. The family still lives there to this day. Of course it went to the oldest son, we came from son number 7 so we got nothing but a good story.

"Santa Barbara, town of the unburied dead" my mother said that. She, her mother and grand mother were all born and raised there, great grandmother was from MEXICO.

River

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:09 pm
by MacTheWolf (imported)
Riverwind (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:31 am I would like to add one more thing to this thread, my ex-wife's grandfather was an Mexican farm worker, did it for years and saved every penny he could, he ended up owning his own home, actually 3 of them all in east San Jose, my mother in law was born and raised on the Indian reservation in Colorado, one of 9 kids, each one started very poor, big catholic family. Each moved into the middle class via hard work. This is the same story for everybody who comes to this country, be it Italians, Irish, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, you name it. The reason we still see this with the Mexican is because it has never stopped, there still coming to start a new life. There kids will be the ones moving into that middle class and the generation after that most likely wont even speak Spanish. They will no longer marry another Mexican but a gringo, like me.

Its interesting being the white sheep of the family and trying to be excepted, but not fatal.

River

Gull darned Gringos

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:12 am
by Riverwind (imported)
That's what I am talking about, my mothers side of the family has been in California sense the late 1600's, GGM Foxen was born in 1798 died in 1912, I have a picture of her holding my mother.

Now if the damn old foreigners would just go back where they came from California and the rest of the south west would be a wonderful place to live, Spanish would be the language of choice and the people would be a nice brown.

River

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:08 pm
by A-1 (imported)
Riverwind (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:12 am That's what I am talking about, my mothers side of the family has been in California sense the late 1600's, GGM Foxen was born in 1798 died in 1912, I have a picture of her holding my mother.

Now if the damn old foreigners would just go back where they came from California and the rest of the south west would be a wonderful place to live, Spanish would be the language of choice and the people would be a nice brown.

River

HEY RIVER!

I have a GREAT idea. Lets get a LAW passed so that anybody who looks like a "visitor" from Europe will have to show I.D. Those "white" people, you just can't trust 'em. They have these "organized" crime 'families' from Italy, Russia and Greece. This is not to mention the Jews in organized crime or worse yet, the Zionists. Or those GerMANIC countries that gave rise to Hitler and the Governator. Then there is the ENGLISH and the IRISH...with RED hair...ewww!

And speaking of confusing, what about those lily-white POLYGAMIST Mormons, who claim that "Zion" is in Utah?

WE should just deport ALL of them. All they do is cause trouble, steal land, jobs and precious metals from honest Mexicans, teach them to speak English or even worse, have Catholic worship services in Latin, which NOBODY understands except for child-molesting Nazi Priests.

I say, if they can't speak Spanish, they have no place in Southern California or the desert Southwest.

Better that we import Chinamen to do the menial work than to give the "white devils" a chance...

...this country is going to HELL IN A HAND BASKET...

:shakemitk

😄

ON THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD...

My FINAL ANSWER....

The Mexicans are SO POOR because the Spaniards stole all of their GOLD, SILVER and precious gems and shipped them home to Spain.

Spain is poor because they shipped the gold on ships that were too small during Hurricane season and what didn't sink the English Pirates STOLE...

:shakemitk

😄

Re: How Come Mexicans Are so Poor?

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:27 pm
by thearmchairprof (imported)
Myself, being an English Pirate, can verify the factuality of the above statement.