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Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:12 am
by Riverwind (imported)
DeaconBlues (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:48 pm Even though I oppose the "reputation points system," if the points system were active now, I would have given you points for this post.

Thankyou for "taking up for the Underdog" in your posts.

Me too,

Yes even though I started this post, I too would have given you points for your post.

River

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:00 pm
by moi621 (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:18 pm What can you do when you really need to stop such a car?

Can't just pull out the key like in the old, Rockford Files.

Throw it into neutral and let it rev until it throws a rod?

Apply emergency brake?

Apply regular brake?

Turn off ignition?

What are the possibilities in these electronic cars, when one goes out of control, high speed

Thanks.

Moi

Please, does someone have advice for a driver in a run away car with a jammed throttle, please.

Some ideas above.

Thank you

Moi with apologies for quoting myself. :D

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:20 pm
by Arab Nights (imported)
There are going to be much better answers from car people, but I would like to offer a thought from single engine and unpowered aircraft. Sometimes the best instant reaction is just to look for the most forgiving place to have a controlled crash. Uphill. Brush but not big oak trees. Fences. Controlled is always better than uncontrolled and anything to burn off velocity is good. Of course, if it is at night and you don't like the looks you can always turn off the headlights.

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:11 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
And shut your eyes.

River

LOL

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:41 am
by streetglide (imported)
Again, I wouldn't worry. People just panic...oh my, I'm going faster, and my foots not on the accelerator!!

The car will stop, click the key off, it won't run without electricity!

I've had several were the throttle stuck on the floor, a 65 Beetle, and a 70 Nova, turned off the key both times and drifted to the shoulder, I'm still alive!!
moi621 (imported) wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:00 pm Please, does someone have advice for a driver in a run away car with a jammed throttle, please.

Some ideas above.

Thank you

Moi with apologies for quoting myself. :D

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:57 am
by Arab Nights (imported)
gareth19 (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:42 am And by the way, the coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns which the court decided was far too hot for human consumption, and utterly unnecessary, and it didn't spill in a car, it spilled in the restaurant.

About five or six years ago I bought a coffee at a Circle K on the highway north from Prescott, AZ near an airport. When I came out, I put the coffee on the hood to unlock the car. It slipped off and fell, hitting my calf. The coffee was so hot that the pain was pretty intense thru my pants and socks. I rushed into the bathroom and my skin had already started to blister. After flushing with cold water, I went to tell the manager that the coffee was way too hot and what had happened. He immediately took a hard line, telling me there was nothing wrong with the coffee and that it was not my job to spill coffee on myself.

I was changed on the spot from a frequent purchaser at Circle K to them being a last resort. It obviously is not the end of the world for them, but I do get pleasure in knowing that my couple of thousand a year in gasoline and food purchases now goes elsewhere. I also believe companies make honest mistakes, reasonable decisions with unintended consequences and, sometimes, have assholes like that manager. Often nothing changes without the pound of flesh. It shouldn't be 100 pounds of flesh, but nothing forces action like writing a check. Our system for determining yes or know on the pound of flesh is not always perfect, but I really think if you look around the world it is one of the better ones for balancing all the interests and keeping society on a fairly even keel.

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:28 am
by gareth19 (imported)
streetglide (imported) wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:41 am Again, I wouldn't worry. People just panic...oh my, I'm going faster, and my foots not on the accelerator!!

The car will stop, click the key off, it won't run without electricity!

I've had several were the throttle stuck on the floor, a 65 Beetle, and a 70 Nova, turned off the key both times and drifted to the shoulder, I'm still alive!!

Not to be cruel, but a 1970 Nova is a 40 year old car; that is practically an antique, and from what I've heard stopping a Nova wasn't the big problem it was starting it; the Mexcians always said the names says it all: No va! The electronic ignitions and computerized controls on this generation of cars are quite different. I can tell you how to stop a 1930 Model A, put your foot on the ground, but that doesn't mean anything with a modern car.

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:04 am
by Arab Nights (imported)
I thought this was a rather good article.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB3000142 ... 74200.html

The millisecond-scale operation of an analog on-off switch is an eternity to a computer. Does that tremulous signal mean a finger meant to push the button once or twice? Is the computer being misled by microvoltages created by electronic interference? Did a user really push the button at all?

As one authority puts it, "Switches can do some really odd things. . . . Switches don't make and break cleanly on the time scales of digital systems."

Thus software "debouncers," or bits of code written to analyze the many states of a seemingly simple on-off switch, are one of the Faustian prices we pay for our digital plenty—though sometimes the burden is also partly borne by the user. A particularly unsuccessful mix of the two approaches is the ignition button in certain Toyota models that must be held down for three continuous seconds to turn off a runaway car.

That feature played a role in a horrific crash in San Diego in August, in which a 2009 Lexus sped out of control and killed four occupants. Toyota, though, says the primary fault lies with a poorly designed gas pedal and floor mat combination that kept the gas pressed down. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has agreed, to an extent, though refuses to join Toyota in ruling out other defects in the cars. Then there's the Los Angeles Times, which in a series of articles points the finger at an unknown bug in Toyota vehicle electronics.

Those of lengthened years will remember the sudden acceleration scare, driven by CBS's "60 Minutes," that almost pushed Audi out of the U.S. market in the 1980s. Lawyers at the time made out like bandits even though handicapped by having to allege an unidentified defect in a mechanical system—and by the fact that the defect seemed to show up disproportionately in cases of elderly female drivers who were new to the Audi.

A second life was given to SUA (sudden unintended acceleration) litigation in the 1990s with the spread of cruise control and electronic fuel injection, making it easier to sustain a claim of unseen and unreplicable software or circuitry glitches. With Toyota wearing the bulls-eye, now comes the third wave thanks to the revolution that means even a midpriced car nowadays can contain dozens of microprocessors and 30 million lines of code.

As the L.A. Times argued in its latest installment Sunday, "complaints of sudden acceleration in many Toyota and Lexus vehicles shot up almost immediately after the automaker adopted the so-called drive-by-wire system over the last decade. That system uses sensors, microprocessors and electric motors—rather than a traditional link such as a steel cable—to connect the driver's foot to the engine."

Toyota has already told owners to remove the offending floor mats. In a record-breaking recall, it will also modify or replace gas pedals in nearly four million Lexus and Toyota vehicles. In a recapitulation of Audi's experience, Toyota's drive-by-wire may well be exculpated over time. Multiple investigations suggested the problem was a driver standing on the gas rather than the brake when shifting into drive. Sure enough, after Audi installed a shift-lock making this harder to do, incidents fell sharply. By then, of course, Toyota will have paid a fortune to settle cases, though as a well-established brand it won't be hurt as badly as Audi was.

That said, a collateral lesson from these events surely concerns the need for simple analog overrides of the digital systems we increasingly rely on. It's one thing to endure the unendurable milliseconds before a software switch turns on a hi-def TV that, in analog days, would have responded instantly to an analog switch. But given the impossibility (as Microsoft has repeatedly demonstrated) of debugging any software product fully before putting it on the market, Toyota's delayed "off" switch is inexcusable. Bad enough is that its function was only explained deep in the owner's manual—in any case, three seconds is too long at 100 mph.

Racecars and motorcycles increasingly have drive-by-wire systems too—but the trusty kill switch remains part of every design. Such systems need to work for people who are panicked and not able to think through their options. In another design flaw, power-assist for Toyota's brakes apparently fades out when the engine is at full rev, making it hard or impossible for the average motorist to assert enough pressure to overpower the drive train when the throttle is jammed open.

Yes, the driver in the San Diego crash, an off-duty California highway patrolman, might have yanked the transmission into neutral. He didn't. Maybe he was too busy jabbing the ignition button. The world needs simple, straightforward on-off switches, with the inestimable virtue of having only two states—on and off.

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:37 am
by Uncle Flo (imported)
As a once upon a time riverboat engineer I would like to make a few comments. Almost all vacuum brake assist systems lose power when the throttle is wide open because the intake manifold vacuum becomes very low. At one time electronic engine throttle and reduction/reverse gear controls were tried out in towboats but were found to be trouble prone and so they went back to mechanical, air or cable "ship-ups" for direct controls. The engines still have fuel flow and combustion controls that are electronic but with manual over ride and often with "sudden death" controls that shut down the engine and stop the propellers from turning. --FLO--

Re: Toyota Recall in the News

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:11 am
by fhunter
To me drive-by-wire systems in modern cars are a bit scary.

As for the killswitch - its a necessity for any dangerous equipment - be it car or something else.

I remember back in 2002 we were building a machine for stacking boxes coming from the conveyor... Killswitch for shutting off power to the control valves was installed after software error (my bad🍑👋) and wiring error (the sensors for the up and down directions were swapped :) ).

No one was hurt, but that machine jumped all over the floor :)