transward (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:52 pm Go to http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

click on the button "lines", then move the slider back and forth on the male - female axis. You should be able to see clearly what I mean about the angle of the forearm being a sexual indicator. And these indicators have been tested across a number of cultures.

Transward

Hello!

Often when you look into the "tranny" pages on the net and instructions for men trying to pass as women when in dresses they point at when running as a girl you should hold your elbows close to your waist and balance the running with you underarms only as a difference to men who bend their arms and use all the weight of he arms to balance the moving. Another thing: girls run more straight up than boys who bend and put their heads in front.

Greetings

John

Besides the body, there is the brain.

According to some, regardless of a person's body, the brain is a better indicator of whether you are male or female.

Males (regardless of physical body) are better are spatial tasks, such as parallel parking and operating equipment like ditch diggers, cranes, and other tools that require three dimensional skills, such as throwing a spear to kill tonight's dinner.

Females on the other hand (regardless of physical body) aren't so good at spatial tasks but are good at other "hand" tasks like sewing, taking care of babies and a whole host of non-spatial tasks.

Probably something in the DNA that passes down, or perhaps skips a generation or two, or just got "twisted" just a bit so that body parts and body style is out of sync with brain style.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, it is not "abnormal"; it just happens. What is abnormal is the mind-set that most people have where you must "act your age" and "act your body". You can't change either one of those, and just why is it necessary to act out each of them anyway? It isn't ! The real problem is in people who have mindsets that are stuck in the mud.

transward (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:52 pm Go to http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

click on the button "lines", then move the slider back and forth on the male - female axis. You should be able to see clearly what I mean about the angle of the forearm being a sexual indicator. And these indicators have been tested across a number of cultures.

Transward

I've conducted a poll with 26 replies so far. Out of 26 cisgendered physical males, only 3 have reported parallel arms while 23 have reported arms that taper out. One "taper arm" respondent wrongly clicked 'straight down'. I highly doubt that the angle of the forearm is an indicator, as is evidenced by the factual data.

The URL you've provided does not seem to be representative of the average person. The angle which the elbow is held out from the body or held in to the body seems overly eaggerated. I can see at least one reason for this. When subjects' movements are recorded in a controlled environment, movement tend to be unnatural and exaggerated. I suspect if there was some way to measure the walking posture of men and women under natural, non-lab conditions, or at least, not with their conscious awareness of being recorded, the variation would be a lot smaller than you'd realise.

Moreover, I noticed that they are interested in the link between biology and SOCIAL gender recognition, meaning how OTHERS perceive your gender by your biology, rather than how one perceives one's own gender by their own biology. This means that for a female gendered physical male, no matter how unbiologically like a female that person is physically, she will still perceive her gender to be female. I think the interpretation you've drawn from their research is the incorrect one.

Besides, you will have to explain how, I, who have not learnt, or ever bothered to learn, how to walk in a "female" way, have arms that taper out, or how 23 of 26 biological cisgendered males have this "supposed indicator of sex" marking them out to be female.

For anyone who is interested, I shall be posting up a screenshot of the poll results as screen-capped at 10.40am 23 June 2009 in a bit. The URL is as follows:

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak ... 2264_n.jpg

Update: I have 30 replies now, with 27 cisgendered physical males reporting outwards tapering arms.

Hello!

John (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:10 am Often when you look into the "tranny" pages on the net and instructions for men trying to pass as women when in dresses they point at when running as a girl you should hold your elbows close to your waist and balance the running with you underarms only as a difference to men who bend their arms and use all the weight of he arms to balance the moving. Another thing: girls run more straight up than boys who bend and put their heads in front.

Greetings

John

I don't bother with that, nobody's gonna take me for a guy. They just think of me as a tomboy. Heck, when u're trying not to get shot, who's gonna care how you run.

Anyway while I don't disagree that a physical female's arms will be slightly differently shaped to a physical male's, I think the theory that we can use outwardly tapering arms to tell if a physical male is transsexual is simply not true.

You can't argue against factual data, and you can be socially accepted as female by just letting yr inner feminity shine through instead of relying on unreliable superficialities.

(For fun I got my ex to do it as well. She has arms that taper outwards too. I think MOST people, male or female, trans or cis, have outward tapering arms.)

As of 1350 GMT 23 June 2009:

My poll has gotten 45 respondents

4 Have arms that hang straight down.

40 Have arms that taper. (One wrongly clicked 'straight down')

1 Have arms that taper and claims to be female-identified. I will further follow up to find out if said person is cisgendered female or transsexual male.

I think the evidence speaks for itself.

Another test is to extend your arms in front of you, interlock your fingers then try to bring your elbows together, men cannot but woman can, this also has to do with the upper body development differences between men and woman.

I am MtF and my arms taper out, this one i can't get my elbows together, the chair thing i can't do.

The brain is where the real difference is, woman have slightly smaller brains, mass wise, than men.

To me these are just fun things just like this test:

http://transsexual.org/cogiati_english.html

Paula

Interesting... My arm geometry puts me on the female side. But I've always been great at parallel parking, lol.

If there is any one area that could genuinely be said to be physically female in a MtF transsexual, it's likely to be the brain.

In 1997, J.N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab conducted tests on the brains of transgender individuals. Their tests showed that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Their study was the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

There you go folks. It's not the arms that is a reliable indicator. It's the brain. Like I've always said.

With regards to the chair test, is it supposed to be hard? I have no problems whatsoever lifting the chair. I'm also very short so I don't even need to take a step back to be able to bend over almost 90 degrees with my head against the wall.

punkypink (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:30 am If there is any one area that could genuinely be said to be physically female in a MtF transsexual, it's likely to be the brain.

There you go folks. It's not the arms that is a reliable indicator. It's the brain. Like I've always said.

With regards to the chair test, is it supposed to be hard? I have no problems whatsoever lifting the chair. I'm also very short so I don't even need to take a step back to be able to bend over almost 90 degrees with my head against the wall.

I think we did this in cubscouts. I watched one boy after the other try and no matter how hard they did they could not lift the chair and then stand up. I figured I would not be able to do it either but it was easy. How?! Hell if I know. I tried the interlocking your fingers with arms extended and touch your elbows. I managed to get them close and heard a "crack" sound so I stopped.

I dunno....

When I went to Cal, back in the early 60's, I was part of the infamous somatotyping study. Every member of the freshman class, boys and girls were photographed, naked, front, rear, and sides, and the photos were given to "somatotyping experts" who were to predict the academic and athletic abilities of the students, their personality traits, sexual orientation and probability of academic success. (The reason that the study became infamous was that is was done as part of what appeared to be a routine physical and we were not told we could opt out.) The students were then tracked for their entire university careers and many longer (Some out to twenty years.) to see if the predictions, based on body type and posture, were correct.

The results? The somatotyping idea was discredited. The predictions were no better than pure chance. However, somatotyping, and other indicators of personality, success, sexual orientation and the like, such as the angle of the dangle of someone's arms, do make great parlor games and gossip starters.