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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:11 pm
by IbPervert (imported)
kristoff wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:51 am That is carrying paranoia to the absurd I would expect

I do admit that it is just a bit paranoid, but it is an example of one possibility that could happen.

Let me put it another way...if one of your stories were to become public knowledge amongst your immediate family how would feel and react?

What about your friends, work associates, the local media?

I had a person that was spending a few months living in this house somehow sneaked into my room, and found gay porn on my computer. I got in trouble for having that stuff in the house! Yes everyone in the house knows I am gay, but they do not understand why i like that stuff. They did question what he was doing in my room, but the damage was done.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:49 pm
by kennath7 (imported)
Paranoid or not in this day in age you use good judgment you have to be able to think ahead of the different possibilities that may or may not happen as a result of the choice you make THE MERAINDA RIGHTS any thing you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:48 pm
by YankeeClipper (imported)
ramses (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:02 pm SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v.

FREE SPEECH COALITION et al.

CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-795.ZS.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. 00—795. Argued October 30, 2001–Decided April 16, 2002

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The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 (CPPA) expands the federal prohibition on child pornography to include not only pornographic images made using actual children, 18 U.S.C. § 2256(8)(A), but also “any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture” that “is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct,” §2256(8)(B), and any sexually explicit image that is “advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression” it depicts “a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct,” §2256(8)(D). Thus, §2256(8)(B) bans a range of sexually explicit images, sometimes called “virtual child pornography,” that appear to depict minors but were produced by means other than using real children, such as through the use of youthful-looking adults or computer-imaging technology. Section 2256(8)(D) is aimed at preventing the production or distribution of pornographic material pandered as child pornography. Fearing that the CPPA threatened their activities, respondents, an adult-entertainment trade association and others, filed this suit alleging that the “appears to be” and “conveys the impression” provisions are overbroad and vague, chilling production of works protected by the First Amendment. The District Court disagreed and granted the Government summary judgment, but the Ninth Circuit reversed. Generally, pornography can be banned only if it is obscene under Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, but pornography depicting actual children can be proscribed whether or not the images are obscene because of the State’s interest in protecting the children exploited by the production process, New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 758, and in prosecuting those who promote such sexual exploitation, id., at 761. The Ninth Circuit held the CPPA invalid on its face, finding it to be substantially overbroad because it bans materials that are neither obscene under Miller nor produced by the exploitation of real children as in Ferber.

Held: The prohibitions of §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are overbroad and unconstitutional. Pp. 6—21.

(a) Section 2256(8)(B) covers materials beyond the categories recognized in Ferber and Miller, and the reasons the Government offers in support of limiting the freedom of speech have no justification in this Court’s precedents or First Amendment law. Pp. 6—19.

(1) The CPPA is inconsistent with Miller. It extends to images that are not obscene under the Miller standard, which requires the Government to prove that the work in question, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value, 413 U.S., at 24. Materials need not appeal to the prurient interest under the CPPA, which proscribes any depiction of sexually explicit activity, no matter how it is presented. It is not necessary, moreover, that the image be patently offensive. Pictures of what appear to be 17-year-olds engaging in sexually explicit activity do not in every case contravene community standards. The CPPA also prohibits speech having serious redeeming value, proscribing the visual depiction of an idea–that of teenagers engaging in sexual activity–that is a fact of modern society and has been a theme in art and literature for centuries. A number of acclaimed movies, filmed without any child actors, explore themes within the wide sweep of the statute’s prohibitions. If those movies contain a single graphic depiction of sexual activity within the statutory definition, their possessor would be subject to severe punishment without inquiry into the literary value of the work. This is inconsistent with an essential First Amendment rule: A work’s artistic merit does not depend on the presence of a single explicit scene. See, e.g., Book Named “John Cleland’s Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure” v. Attorney General of Mass., 383 U.S. 413, 419. Under Miller, redeeming value is judged by considering the work as a whole. Where the scene is part of the narrative, the work itself does not for this reason become obscene, even though the scene in isolation might be offensive. See Kois v. Wisconsin, 408 U.S. 229, 231 (per curiam). The CPPA cannot be read to prohibit obscenity, because it lacks the required link between its prohibitions and the affront to community standards prohibited by the obscenity definition. Pp. 6—11.

(2) The CPPA finds no support in Ferber. The Court rejects the Government’s argument that speech prohibited by the CPPA is virtually indistinguishable from material that may be banned under Ferber. That case upheld a prohibition on the distribution and sale of child pornography, as well as its production, because these acts were “intrinsically related” to the sexual abuse of children in two ways. 458 U.S., at 759. First, as a permanent record of a child’s abuse, the continued circulation itself would harm the child who had participated. See id., at 759, and n. 10. Second, because the traffic in child pornography was an economic motive for its production, the State had an interest in closing the distribution network. Id., at 760. Under either rationale, the speech had what the Court in effect held was a proximate link to the crime from which it came. In contrast to the speech in Ferber, speech that is itself the record of sexual abuse, the CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not “intrinsically related” to the sexual abuse of children. While the Government asserts that the images can lead to actual instances of child abuse, the causal link is contingent and indirect. The harm does not necessarily follow from the speech, but depends upon some unquantified potential for subsequent criminal acts. The Government’s argument that these indirect harms are sufficient because, as Ferber acknowledged, child pornography rarely can be valuable speech, see id., at 762, suffers from two flaws. First, Ferber’s judgment about child pornography was based upon how it was made, not on what it communicated. The case reaffirmed that where the speech is neither obscene nor the product of sexual abuse, it does not fall outside the First Amendment’s protection. See id., at 764—765. Second, Ferber did not hold that child pornography is by definition without value. It recognized some works in this category might have significant value, see id., at 761, but relied on virtual images–the very images prohibited by the CPPA–as an alternative and permissible means of expression, id., at 763. Because Ferber relied on the distinction between actual and virtual child pornography as supporting its holding, it provides no support for a statute that eliminates the distinction and makes the alternative mode criminal as well. Pp. 11—13.

(3) The Court rejects other arguments offered by the Government to justify the CPPA’s prohibitions. The contention that the CPPA is necessary because pedophiles may use virtual child pornography to seduce children runs afoul of the principle that speech within the rights of adults to hear may not be silenced completely in an attempt to shield children from it. See, e.g., Sable Communications of Cal., Inc. v. FCC, 492 U.S. 115, 130—131. That the evil in question depends upon the actor’s unlawful conduct, defined as criminal quite apart from any link to the speech in question, establishes that the speech ban is not narrowly drawn. The argument that virtual child pornography whets pedophiles’ appetites and encourages them to engage in illegal conduct is unavailing because the mere tendency of speech to encourage unlawful acts is not a sufficient reason for banning it, Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 566, absent some showing of a direct connection between the speech and imminent illegal conduct, see, e.g., Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (per curiam). The argument that eliminating the market for pornography produced using real children necessitates a prohibition on virtual images as well is somewhat implausible because few pornographers would risk prosecution for abusing real children if fictional, computerized images would suffice. Moreover, even if the market deterrence theory were persuasive, the argument cannot justify the CPPA because, here, there is no underlying crime at all. Finally, the First Amendment is turned upside down by the argument that, because it is difficult to distinguish between images made using real children and those produced by computer imaging, both kinds of images must be prohibited. The overbreadth doctrine prohibits the Government from banning unprotected speech if a substantial amount of protected speech is prohibited or chilled in the process. See Broadrick v. Oklahoma, 413 U.S. 601, 612. The Government’s rejoinder that the CPPA should be read not as a prohibition on speech but as a measure shifting the burden to the accused to prove the speech is lawful raises serious constitutional difficulties. The Government misplaces its reliance on §2252A(c), which creates an affirmative defense allowing a defendant to avoid conviction for nonpossession offenses by showing that the materials were produced using only adults and were not otherwise distributed in a manner conveying the impression that they depicted real children. Even if an affirmative defense can save a statute from First Amendment challenge, here the defense is insufficient because it does not apply to possession or to images created by computer imaging, even where the defendant could demonstrate no children were harmed in producing the images. Thus, the defense leaves unprotected a substantial amount of speech not tied to the Government’s interest in distinguishing images produced using real children from virtual ones. Pp. 13—19.

(b) Section 2256(8)(D) is also substantially overbroad. The Court disagrees with the Government’s view that the only difference between that provision and §2256(8)(B)’s “appears to be” provision is that §2256(8)(D) requires the jury to assess the material at issue in light of the manner in which it is promoted, but that the determination would still depend principally upon the prohibited work’s content. The “conveys the impression” provision requires little judgment about the image’s content; the work must be sexually explicit, but otherwise the content is irrelevant. Even if a film contains no sexually explicit scenes involving minors, it could be treated as child pornography if the title and trailers convey the impression that such scenes will be found in the movie. The determination turns on how the speech is presented, not on what is depicted. The Government’s other arguments in support of the CPPA do not bear on §2256(8)(D). The materials, for instance, are not likely to be confused for child pornography in a criminal trial. Pandering may be relevant, as an evidentiary matter, to the question whether particular materials are obscene. See Ginzburg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463, 474. Where a defendant engages in the “commercial exploitation” of erotica solely for the sake of prurient appeal, id., at 466, the context created may be relevant to evaluating whether the materials are obscene. Section 2256(8)(D), however, prohibits a substantial amount of speech that falls outside Ginzburg’s rationale. Proscribed material is tainted and unlawful in the hands of all who receive it, though they bear no responsibility for how it was marketed, sold, or described. The statute, furthermore, does not require that the context be part of an effort at “commercial exploitation.” Thus, the CPPA does more than prohibit pandering. It bans possession of material pandered as child pornography by someone earlier in the distribution chain, as well as a sexually explicit film that contains no youthful actors but has been packaged to suggest a prohibited movie. Possession is a crime even when the possessor knows the movie was mislabeled. The First Amendment requires a more precise restriction. Pp. 19—20.

(c) In light of the foregoing, respondents’ contention that §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are void for vagueness need not be addressed. P. 21.

198 F.3d 1083, affirmed.

Kennedy, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ., joined. Thomas, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment. O’Connor, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment in part and dissenting in part, in which Rehnquist, C. J., and Scalia, J., joined as to Part II. Rehnquist, C. J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Scalia, J., joined except for the paragraph discussing legislative history.

As noted in the ruling above: Stories are not "Kiddy porn" with the laws of the US as such is considered material covered under the 1st Amendment. Any and all parts in the ruling only apply to persons residing in the US and should not be construe to be appropriate to countries outside the US. Holland, for example, and other western countries, have more relaxed ruling covering such material. HOWEVER, federal law prohibits the importation of such material into the US, either in person, or by electronic means.

"Kidddy porn" cover any "pictorials" of any persons under the age of majority, i.e. 18 in the US), This is generally meant to cover persons that appear to be clearly pre-pubescent. An exception to that is for such depictions to be of persons that can be documented to be above the age 18, in spite of lack of genital development (my friend Tim is an example of that exception). In careful reading of the above ruling, there is still some flexibly when it comes to adolescent youth that are not engaged in clearly sexual activities and/or the receiver was not involved in the further sale and distribution of such martial.

Keep in mind, that state laws may be more restrictive in the definition of what is defined as "pocession of child pornography" is.

Contrary to certain statements made by some conservative religious groups, a higher percentage of those that collect "kiddy porn" are heterosexuals, not homosexuals, as confirmed by arrest and conviction rates. This mirrors the rates involving all types of sexually illegal behavior and rape.

Pedophiles are those persons that are drawn (potentially sexually) to the naked form of the pre-pubescent youth.

Ephebophiles are those persons that are drawn (potentially sexually) to the naked form of the adolescent youth (that appear to be under 18). In many cases the young person is legally old enough to be photographed.

Both homosexuals and heterosexuals can fall into either category above or neither. The 2 types of groups are independent of each other, sexuality and/collector of pornography..

Many 18 to 22/23 shave themselves to appear to fit in the 15 to 18 year-old category to draw in those persons that will to pay for photographs of persons that have the appearance of that age range (15 to 18) but are legally certified to be 18 or above. This is exactly what the case above covered. the result was that as long as that age of the model can be certified is over the age of 18 (for photographs), the depictions are legal. That why Slammr always draws his drawings that clearly have adult genitalia.

The court also restricted the law further to limit the law as to cover only photographs of "real persons" (such photographs that may nave been created so as to victimize the person in the picture) but prohibited enforcement of the law when it came to such depiction that were clearly created by hand or by the use of a computer wherein no "actual person" was used in the creation of the depiction.

The commercial companies use lawyers that specialize in maintaining such certifications. A driver's license or passport is sufficient to meet the requirements of the law as it now stands given the Supreme Court ruling cited in the case. The purpose of the ruling was to draw a "bright line" that did not exist in the law as originally written.

Most times, local law enforcement will not pursue a case where the depictions are not of pre-adolescent youth.

Federal authorities WILL get involved when it involves sales and distribution of depictions of persons th at are obviously pre-pubescent, most commonly when it involves the use of the USPS to transport said illicit material across state lines, said material having been purchased by the end customer.

The USPS has run stings in this way in the past sending out solicitations that make it clear that material is offered for sale is of underaged youth. I can't recall if I ever received one, but if I did, it went straight into the waste bin, not caring in the offered material.

The simple implication is that don't keep photographs of "actual minors." (Adults like Tim are a legal exception, as long as clear documentation can be provided). Under the 1st Amendment, stories that are strictly text of any type, or content, cannot be restricted.

-YC

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:22 am
by skivvynine (imported)
Your information is greatly appreciated. The only thing I find wrong with your article is that there is no country called Holland. Holland is a providence of the Netherlands. It is like making Texas and The US synonymous. I have a degree in Geography. The countries should be called by their correct names.🙏

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:12 am
by Paolo
If it becomes a crime to write about children in sexual situations, then the following books I have read should be banned, and the authors jailed:

Anne Rice - Cry to Heaven - castration of boys as the theme in Italy.

Orson Scott Card - Lost Boys - murder of boys, as well as the Alvin Maker series - castration of minors threatened. Also, Songmaster.

David Eddings - The Belgariad/Mallorean Series - castration of boys mentioned, one character is a eunuch who states he was 'nullified' as a baby.

Stephen King - take your pick - child abuse and molestation run through many of his works.

Dean Koontz - abuse here and there.

The Holy Bible - child abuse and circumcision, implied castration of minors, war, violence, slavery, murder, you name it.

And I'm sure the list goes on.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:30 am
by fredericlei (imported)
...
skivvynine (imported) wrote: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:22 am there is no country called Holland. Holland is a providence of the Netherlands. It is like making Texas and The US synonymous. I have a degree in Geography. The countries should be called by their correct names. ...

Nevertheless, Holland, though a province of the Netherlands, has (by synecdoche) been the English name for the country for hundreds of years. Perhaps you could also reprove those who use the word vagina to refer to all of the vulva, or scold those who refer to the federal executive of the USA by the fairly broad term America or the guvment, or you could castigate anyone who uses metonomy at any time.

The common English name for the Hellenic Republic (Elliniki Dimokratia) is Greece; the common English name for the kingdom of Saudi Arabia (Al-Mamlaka al-Arabiya as-Saudiya) is Saudi Arabia; the common English name for the German republic (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) is Germany; the common English name for the kingdom of Sweden (Konungariket Sverige) is Sweden. When people of these and numerous other countries decide to pronounce the proper names of towns and countries in the English-speaking world as they are locally, then I for one might consider using their terminology for their places. Until then I shall stick with, for instance, the understandable English names of Copenhagen instead of København, Munich instead of München, Rome instead of Roma, Japan instead of Nihon, Bangkok instead of Krung Thep Maha Nakhon, and even L.A. instead of El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula, and so forth.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:24 am
by coinflipper_21 (imported)
So, with all the good intent of the law, let's see what actually happens when you have laws like this.

http://news.cnet.com/Police-blotter-Tee ... 57857.html

Here we have two teenagers, taking pictures of themselves and the girl sent them to the personal e-mail account of the boy. How this came to the attention of the authorities is not exactly clear. The speculation is that the boy's mother wanted to end the relationship and turned them in, apparently not realizing what she was letting them in for. They were charged and convicted of producing, distributing and possession of child pornography, and because there was the possibility that someone else might have seen the pictures at some time in the future the appeals court upheld the conviction as meeting the letter of the law.

It seems that the Law of Unintended Consequences applies over all.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:17 am
by BossTamsin (imported)
For those of you who enjoy reading legalese, I present Canada vs. Beattie (http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/decision ... C41354.htm).

If you do not enjoy reading legalese, allow me to summarize.

In Canada, as in a growing number of other countries, it has been ruled that fictional stories may indeed fall under the definition of child pornography. In this case in particular, a new trial was ordered on the basis of that judgement. Currently, I cannot find any information on if a retrial was held, or what the outcome may have been.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:19 am
by jane_says (imported)
Intellectually, I agree with IE and others who defend the erotica on the basis of thought not being prosecutable (and I believe that it shouldn't be). HOWEVER. As a parent, I am squicked out by it entirely. I will say that I feel there is a world of difference between a 17-year-old and a 7-year-old, even in fictional writing, but in most cases I am not entirely comfortable with either. My ickiness meter may be set a little lower than everyone else's due to some things my family has dealt with, but I have no interest in ever reading any child/pre-teen erotica.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:41 pm
by moi621 (imported)
fredericlei (imported) wrote: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:30 am Nevertheless, Holland, though a province of the Netherlands, has (by synecdoche) been the English name for the country for hundreds of years. Perhaps you could also reprove those who use the word vagina to refer to all of the vulva, or scold those who refer to the federal executive of the USA by the fairly broad term America or the guvment, or you could castigate anyone who uses metonomy at any time.

The common English name for the Hellenic Republic (Elliniki Dimokratia) is Greece; the common English name for the kingdom of Saudi Arabia (Al-Mamlaka al-Arabiya as-Saudiya) is Saudi Arabia; the common English name for the German republic (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) is Germany; the common English name for the kingdom of Sweden (Konungariket Sverige) is Sweden. When people of these and numerous other countries decide to pronounce the proper names of towns and countries in the English-speaking world as they are locally, then I for one might consider using their terminology for their places. Until then I shall stick with, for instance, the understandable English names of Copenhagen instead of København, Munich instead of München, Rome instead of Roma, Japan instead of Nihon, Bangkok instead of Krung Thep Maha Nakhon, and even L.A. instead of El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula, and so forth.

Bravo ! English is a peoples language. A language where

common use rules and not some academy.

BTW, I still call Burma, Burma, although I know where that

other place is too.