The goats in the study had testicle volume of about 100cc. Humans about 1/4th of that. They injected 2 ml in each testicle. The human equivalent would be about 0.5 ml per testicle. Maybe that would be less painful than using 3-4 times as much as seen here on this forum.

Darkwicca (imported) wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:41 pm The goats in the study had testicle volume of about 100cc. Humans about 1/4th of that. They injected 2 ml in each testicle. The human equivalent would be about 0.5 ml per testicle. Maybe that would be less painful than using 3-4 times as much as seen here on this forum.

This is why I very much appreciate this forum. Genuine concern, constructive criticism, educated analysis, and productive conversation. As far as the goat vs human testicle volume, if that is the case then it sounds as if Something and myself could have avoided some of the initial pain by using a lower dose in terms of volume (0.5ml vs my 1.7 ml or so per side)? This makes quite a bit of sense now that I think of it since the majority of my discomfort has been in the inguinal area around the spermatic cords, leaving me to believe that substantial part of what I injected could have traveled up the cords. As Darkwicca (love the name) suggests, 0.5 ml of CACL may be sufficient. SplitDik is very good with this so perhaps he can weigh in?

My discomfort levels have subsided quite a bit and now it just feel like I've been kicked between the legs a few times, with a constant dull ache up and around my pelvic region. The back ache was almost the worst part of it and thankfully has eased up. Now the little buggers are just dreadfully painful to the touch or when I sit down and they get pinched (Yeowee!).

I think your dosage of 3to1 SilviaCor may be a bit too high. However, if you go with 3to1, then I would consider Darkwicca's suggestion and only use 0.5ml - 1ml per side. Good luck and be slow and meticulous!

Something (imported) wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:20 pm Not really, like I've said they don't hurt anymore. It went away after... erm... five days I think. It hurt most when I was walking or moving my legs, and it was the kind of pain that made me need to move my legs... I did it at night as well and had no sleep at all! But yeah, nothing new except the change in shape. I hope it works, I really do... I don't want to have to find another method or go through that pain again... To me the idea that testosterone is inside of me makes me feel like I'm infected, like it's going to basically eat me from the inside... I know that sounds weird, and I know even women have testosterone... But I genuinely can't let it continue to be produced!

Hope it works well for you. If I do end up doing it again (which I'll wait quite a while for, by the way), I'll have to get more calcium chloride... the salt has separated from the liquid in the stuff I have which is a bit worrying...

I know EXACTLY how you feel Something in terms of being "infected" with testosterone. As a transgendered person, I know what it feels like to fear, rather then welcome, the onset of puberty. I know how it feels to wake up every morning asking why did this happen to me? My female mind has never conformed to my male body and never will for that matter. All we can hope for is to find a small sense of relief from the inner demons by attacking them directly, although it is a minor victory given the lifetime of despair that many transgendered persons never escape. Be well and be safe.

Special thanks to those brave people who were willing to try it and share their experiences.

Regarding the pain, I have a few comments/thoughts. It is interesting how all the reports on animals seem to indicate that the pain is well tolerated. This is measured by actual cortisol in the blood, and also by the actions of the animal. They do note that the animals "walk with stiff gait" during the first two days of swelling, so it seems there is some pain, but of course a cow or dog can't really describe it. With dogs they note that they don't lick the area (a typical sign of injury response); however I wonder if that is because testicle pain is displaced to inside the abdomen -- in other words even if a dog felt pain, it is not felt as a exterior pain located in the testicles, but rather an interior pain which a dog may not try to lick. So I guess now we know they probably do feel pain, but as animals they can't express it.

Another thought on pain of castration has always interested me -- farm animals through most of history were castrated without anesthetic, and some still are. But we know the burdizzo is extremely painful. It is strange to me that animals don't react in proportion to the pain. With sheep and such, traditionally their testicles are simply pulled, twisted or even bitten off. I'm not sure if they don't feel the pain, or whether as animals their response to pain is simply muted without the human intellectual aspect of the pain and castration act.

Yet another theory is that human testicles may simply be way more sensitive than animals'. Human testicles are erogenous, and fondling them is a part of our common sexual acts. This isn't really true of most animals -- it's not like a female cow licks the bulls balls as foreplay. We may truly have more sensitive testicles.

Regarding the lidocaine, you can go ahead and try it, but it won't help with the delayed pain described above -- the lidocaine will only help numb for a couple hours after the initial injection. I'm not sure that subsequent injections of lidocaine would help either, but it might be good to have some around in case the pain becomes unbearable.

Regarding BrookTS and the amount of swelling, plus the hope that it is acting faster, I think that the swelling is well documented to last for three days in all the studies.

Regarding the amount to put in, I wouldn't go by the goats' testicle size. The dogs are more comparable and they also used 2cc. You'll note that most of the studies actually talked more about the actual mg of CaCL delivered than about the volume of the solution. The real problem though for figuring out the comparable dosing is that they seem to dose according to body weight, rather than by testicle size. In any case, it is clear that in a couple studies that 2cc of 20% CaCL is used in dog-sized testicles, and in fact in the videos you can see them inject about that much.

Note also, that while caution is good (better to start with a small trial), there is a point where the trial will bring most of the pain but little of the effect. So hard to say what the best way to go is. I think starting with 0.5cc is fine to understand the process, to make sure you don't have any exceptional reactions or infections, but it could be a waste as I don't think there should be any expectation that it would acheive castration.

Lastly, I think the main thing about the pain and safety is that these things are relative. As far as I can see from recent accounts from those surgically castrated, those people have had up to weeks of recovery with ice packs, HUGE swelling, massive hematomos, actual injections. More than one account here on the forums has had the guy having to go back for follow up surgery. And regarding other methods, we know that burdizzo and elastrator are pretty much intolerable in terms of pain. Alcohol seems to be a bit easier to take, but those that do that know that there is at least a dull ache and often some lasting tenderness with alcohol and that method needs to be repeated dozens of times.

Another thought on pain is it is interesting that the first two people here trying this method are not the pain slut masochistic type. For example, I actually pay women to kick me in the balls, so it makes me wonder how bad the pain actually is. I think it really is bad, but just saying that individual reaction to pain is a very variable thing.

I think that if the pain is two days of tenderness that requires no more medication than one might take for a bad headache, it is still the least amount of pain of any method assuming it actually achieves the desired effect.

The funny thing about pain of course is that when it is happening to you it is almost unbearable, but when it is over it is hardly a memory. I think of all the injuries, bad headaches, sore throats, etc. I've had, and I remember at the time wishing I would die (almost literally sometimes), but once it is over it is hard to remember how bad it actually felt. So I'm saying just hang in there, the significant pain should be only the first 48 hours based on the typical swelling cycle.

With all that being said, I do wish that people didn't have any significant pain at all, as was sort of promised by the researchers' observations on cortisol levels. So I really feel sorry for to those who go through this! Hope it proves worthwhile.

The report from india in 2007 regarding sterilization of stray dogs showed that the average dog, weighing about 12.5kg, with a testicular weight at about 100g. They used a 1ml solution. That is the equivalent of about 0.25ml for humans.

Not saying that it would be better or less painful. But we dont know before anyone tries it. It would be a big plus if it worked as well as higher amounts but without as much pain. That it may not work as well is the only downside I see. But then it can be tried again after a sufficient amount of time.

Darkwicca (imported) wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:25 pm The report from india in 2007 regarding sterilization of stray dogs showed that the average dog, weighing about 12.5kg, with a testicular weight at about 100g. They used a 1ml solution. That is the equivalent of about 0.25ml for humans.

Not saying that it would be better or less painful. But we dont know before anyone tries it. It would be a big plus if it worked as well as higher amounts but without as much pain. That it may not work as well is the only downside I see. But then it can be tried again after a sufficient amount of time.

Hold on, I think you're on to something. The papers are tricky because they keep talking about testicle size per unit body weight rather than just the actual testicle size (which to me makes more sense for this type of study as that would be more important). Any way, we can do the math, as follows

First of all, the testicle volume numbers used in the studies are for BOTH testicles. Also, they don't measure the weight before but rather do it like this (note that where they said "width" they actually mean cross-sectional area since the units are square cm):

Measurement of testicular volume

Length and width of the right and left testis were measured

using laboratory callipers, and the volume of each

testis was quantified by multiplying the length (cm) by

width (cm2) by 0.524. Total testicular volume (cm3) was

calculated by adding together the volume of the right

and left testis [18].

Now some of you may have truly small testicles, but I just did the calculation on mine. My testicles are 5 cm long by 3 cm (so radius is 1.5cm) wide and they are pretty average. By the calculation above, that makes my testicle volume 65mL (2 * 5 * 3.14 * 2 * 2 * 0.524).

That is volume, but not weight. The trick here is the testicle density. Meat varies greatly in density, but testicles would be at high density side which mean about 1 g per mL, so I would say my testicles are 65g for this purpose.

In the dog study, they said the control had testicle weight of 810mg/100g of body weight and their body weight averaged 10kg to 15kg. Since we're looking for maximum advisable dose, we would look at the smaller dog which is 10000g meaning their testicle weight was 81g.

So a bit bigger than mine. Since the dose was 1cc in this study, I would agree that something like half to 2/3 that would be right for my testicles.

I guess 0.5 is a better range of volume then. 0.25 is likely too small though as they used that on cats whose testicle sre smaller than the tip of a thumb.

I re-read all the papers to try to figure out why I got 2cc stuck in my head, and I think I know why -- they keep talking about using 2mL syringes. However, I guess they are talking about the syringe type (i.e. it COULD hold 2cc) not the actual dose.

So I agree, the human dose would average around 0.75cc per testicle. 1cc is probably okay for those with large testicles, and for those with pre-shrunken testicles due to hormones or alcohol injections 0.5cc. Sorry guys!!!

Oh well, I guess I just about doubled the effective dose which sort of explains my high degree of discomfort :O(

Given the updated information, I'm sure the swelling and pain in my case could have been minimized by injecting only 0.5 ml of CACL per side. However, the pain has now subsided to manageable levels and the swelling is starting to diminish just a bit (but not entirely). This being the third day, I am hopeful the swelling will continue to subside so that I can actually palpate each testicle. I still have difficulty walking and when I do so I sort of have to waddle like a duck. It appears the Epididymis and surrounding area is really swollen and that the CACL traveled back up into the spermatic chords a ways, hence the soreness in the inguinal area.

I think that 0.5ml of liquid CACL @ 30% combined with 0.25ml of Everclear per side would do the trick. However, as SplitDik has suggested, differences in testicular volume could alter (no pun intended) the results. Furthermore, this is all speculative since I do not believe we have had confirmation of anyone injecting a 0.5ml liquid CACL/0.25ml Everclear dose.

I will post an update on my progress within the next couple of days.

Be well and be safe!:)

I almost forgot... Never intentionally inject anything into your body that is not sanctioned by the medical community as this could lead to severe illness or even death!

I'm getting a bit worried it's just changed their shape and nothing else... Not much else has happened since I last posted (I know it hasn't been long, but heh!). I don't know if I'm supposed to have noticed testosterone dropping yet or not, because I haven't. Haven't had anything like hot flashes either (which I've heard you're supposed to). Are there any other signs that it might be working that anyone knows of? Am I just being impatient (lol)? I'm just worried because I really don't want to have to do that again, nor do I want to try any other methods...

I'll remind everyone that in some individuals, it can be weeks, up to a MONTH, before you feel any changes with hormone levels.

For me, it was 3 to 4 weeks after starting trial HRT, and another 4 to work it out of my system. Don't expect results so fast.

Paolo wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:59 pm I'll remind everyone that in some individuals, it can be weeks, up to a MONTH, before you feel any changes with hormone levels.

For me, it was 3 to 4 weeks after starting trial HRT, and another 4 to work it out of my system. Don't expect results so fast.

Well it's been a month and two days since I did the injections, so I guess with the timeframe expected, it should be going fine. Sorry I just got a little worried, that's all