Here is the line in the Criminal Code of Canada that I hold to.

(6) Where the accused is charged with an offence under subsection (2), (3), or (4), the court shall find the accused not guilty if the representation or written material that is alleged to constitute child pornography has

smcallister (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:22 am artistic merit or an educational, scientific

or medical purpose.

You can find the full law HERE (http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.163.1.html)

I do not want any story I write to be interpreted as advocating sex with, or violence against children. However, artistic licence must be allowed, and is allowed under Canadian law. As is educational, scientific, and medical merit. All of which I feel apply to the stories that helped me most.

If I were to write the guidelines for allowing "Minor" themed stories to be allowed onto the Fiction Archive, I would write it thusly;

Stories with minor characters must not be written with the sole purpose of sex with minors, but must speak to the eunuch condition. Allowed stories will demonstrate a greater purpose than just sex with minors.

- For example, the struggle with sexuality or abuse, finding one's place in the world, and understanding who and what we are.

Sexual situations with minors will be judged as metaphor and allegory against the overall meaning of the story. Stories in which the sexual situation cannot be matched through allegory or metaphor to the overall message of the story will not be allowed.

By this I mean that a story can use sex with minors as a part of a greater story, but not for its sole purpose. Also, if the story would still work without the sex, then the sex shouldn't be included. There should be a reason it is happening in the story. As an author you should be able to say why it is important.

As to artistic merit. I find that more difficult to ascribe. But I would describe artistic merit as being something in the writing that says something greater than just what is on the page. There is a message or theme being explored which is evident in the way the story plays out.

Let me try it this way, with two story examples.

1. A story in which someone desires a child sexually. He kidnaps the child, castrates him and has sex with him. He lets the child go. Satisfied with himself, he goes looking for another.

2. A child is kidnapped, castrated and raped. He escapes, and must now try and put his life back together. He must chose how or if he can go on living.

Story 1 would not pass the test. Story 2 would. Story 1 is about nothing but the sex. It would have no value to the eunuch community. Story 2 is about overcoming adversity, and finding one's place in the world. Though essentially the same thing happens in both stories, one has artistic merit, one does not.

I find with shame, that I myself am guilty of writing a story like example 1. My story "How to Make a Cherub" was in the vein of example 1. I wrote the story from the wrong side of the equation. It should never have been allowed. For my sins, it took C van D and Paolo to flip the story ( Via my character Dr Geller.) into the correct structure with the stories "Dr Geller Goes into Partnership" and "Ricky Visits America". They recognized my error, and corrected it within their own stories. I am forever grateful.

The stories that helped me, and offered therapeutic value, were the stories with a greater message. They were written so beautifully, they became like my closest friends. I weep at the thought of losing them.

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:30 pm Stories with minor characters must not be written with the sole purpose of sex with minors, but must speak to the eunuch condition. Allowed stories will demonstrate a greater purpose than just sex with minors.

- For example, the struggle with sexuality or abuse, finding one's place in the world, and understanding who and what we are.

Sexual situations with minors will be judged as metaphor and allegory against the overall meaning of the story. Stories in which the sexual situation cannot be matched through allegory or metaphor to the overall message of the story will not be allowed.

Do you want the job as story moderator? Do you realize how subjective such a decision would be? It's bad enough to read through a story to make sure it meets our past guidelines: something down there must get altered. I, for one, wouldn't want the job of determining what the author's intent on including sex in a story was. Possibly, I won't be asked to continue moderating stories - if they return - but I certainly wouldn't want to moderate them given your conditions. Personally, I see little difference in writing about a boy having sex and in writing about cutting off his balls.

All of the salient issues of my life regarding my being transgendered and autistic arose intensely while I was a "minor child," as did the shattering abuse I received from teachers in public schools. If it is forbidden for an adult who was shatteringly abused as a minor child to write fiction (to protect identities of people wisely not harmed) or autobiographical fiction, will it ever become possible for enough people to recognize the full spectrum of child abuse well enough to effectively bring abuse of children to any sort of effective end?

I continue to find that the fiction stories which are most likely to be deemed inappropriate may be the ones which most clearly shed light on the most terrible aspects of socially unrecognized abuse of children.

It appears to me that psychological defenses, as

janekane (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:08 am mental mechanisms which distort reality in the service of the

ego (the socialization-generated sense of selfhood) are both the effect of the most neurologically serious forms of child abuse no less than psychological defenses are their cause.

Slammr (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:51 pm Do you want the job as story moderator? Do you realize how subjective such a decision would be? It's bad enough to read through a story to make sure it meets our past guidelines: something down there must get altered. I, for one, wouldn't want the job of determining what the author's intent on including sex in a story was. Possibly, I won't be asked to continue moderating stories - if they return - but I certainly wouldn't want to moderate them given your conditions. Personally, I see little difference in writing about a boy having sex and in writing about cutting off his balls.

I wouldn't mind being one of the people chosen to moderate, but I agree with you. Judging something on artistic merit is not easy. It is why I suggested a peer review process.

Of course, I'm not the one who'll make the new submission guidelines. I'm just making a suggestion. I'm trying to explain the type of stories that have given me joy and added value to my life. Those are the stories I'd miss most. A decision will certainly have to be made about inclusion of minor content. I don't think it is best left the way it was.

I was also responding to the comment about Canadian Law. As a Canadian myself, I certainly don't want to end up behind bars for writing a story. Canadian Law says nothing about castration of minors. It only mentions sex. I agree that both would be detrimental to a child. I too see little difference.

From what I have read,(other than my own story on the archive) most of the minor tagged stories would pass the test of artistic value. Very few would be called into question on that basis. Of course I have never seen or have had to read the stories that were rejected. I can only imagine the volume of work that would entail. I'd feel very daunted to tackle all of that by myself.

I would only apply the artistic value method of inclusion to the stories that included minor content, and then only on those that included sexual situations. The other stories seemed to be just fine with the restrictions already in place. From the stories I read on the archive, you already did a fabulous job with approvals. I wouldn't want to imply otherwise.

I'm always open to other ideas of better handling the minor tagged stories. I'll never claim to have all the answers.

I just thought of something that might make determining what the overall story means, and how the author intended it easier.

Could we include a spot in the story submissions page for authors to write their meaning and intent to the moderators? This would be different from the synopsis. It would be a space where the author could argue why the story has value. It would not be published with the story. It would only be for the moderators benefit.

The moderator could read the authors intent when they read the story. If the moderator agrees, it would be published. If they don't, it wouldn't.

Just another idea.

...Just a idea:

Limit stories involving children to the guidelines Cainanite spoke of. Understood that it would be impossible to front-end moderate due to volume.

Create a method for stories to be 'flagged' by readers for violating the guidelines above, which would be reviewed by a moderator(s). Hopefully that would be low volume, and easier to manage with moderation.

It is not foolproof or perfect. However it might reduce some of the risks with no restrictions at all, and be more of a compromise instead of removing them completely.

I continue to wonder whether anyone will notice and comment upon the theme I have been gently and somewhat indirectly suggesting; I plan to offer it in unabashed form at the MoM as circumstances allow.

The theme is simply this. Something leads some people to sometimes act, apparently deliberately, in ways that are directly observable as harmful. Aspects of said supposed something may be of socially learned behavior patterns. Understanding such patterns may provide a way to stop doing whatever causes said patterns.

Perhaps it would be wiser to unequivocally demonstrate that all the fiction stories have redeeming social value when decently understood. I have a hunch that I have a way of accomplishing that unequivocal demonstration in a manner which will be impossible to refute using any sort of intelligible argument. What that is will wait to be told at the MoM, where others present will be able to evaluate its merit or lack thereof.

As for myself, I do not see any way to censor the stories without taking away much of the redeeming social value. At the same time, almost every worthy story of any sort usually benefits from adequate editing, the better to help prevent terrible misunderstandings.

I favor, for now, allowing a form of peer review of stories, which is not the same as censoring them, and stories having passed a decent form of peer review might be the ones made available. Words often work differently for different people, and having a collection of willing peer review people who have garnered some particular threshold reputation score might allow for a useful form of peer reviewer qualifier.

For as long as the Eunuch Archive has specific owners, surely the owners would have a final choice regarding any particular story, as well as final choice as to who is and is not properly a member. Ownership has its necessary "responsibilities" which, if neglected, may allow the owners to be harmed through neglect; that is, methinks wisely to be diligently avoided.

Redeeming social value, unambiguously demonstrated, is the strongest approach I have been able to think up to make the Fiction Archive safe.

If we, the Eunuch Archive members, want the Fiction Archive to be available, we may have to earn the right to its availability by doing our share of the needed work. To the extent that the Eunuch Archive members are a community, for those able to do so, carrying on in the manner of a genuine, active, participatory community may be an optimal sort of method of community building and maintaining.

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:30 pm the court shall find the accused not guilty if the representation or written material that is alleged to constitute child pornography has

smcallister (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:22 am artistic merit or an ed

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:30 pm ucational, scientific

or medical purpose.[/B]

...

By this I mean that a story can use sex with minors as a part of a greater story, but not for its sole purpose. Also, if the story would still work without the sex, then the sex shouldn't be included. There should be a reason it is happening in the story. As an author you should be able to say why it is important.

As to artistic merit. I find that more difficult to ascribe. But I would describe artistic merit as being something in the writing that says something greater than just what is on the page. There is a message or theme being explored which is evident in the way the story plays out.

The stories that helped me, and offered therapeutic value, were the stories with a greater message. They were written so beautifully, they became lik

e my closest friends. I weep at the thought of losing them.

There are a bunch of things going on with the task.

One goal is to protect the administrators or identified "owners" of the site and domain name. Obviously we don't want them to risk criminal prosecution for breaking some law somewhere. One approach to that would be to set it up so the only one who has responsibility for the story is the writer/submitter (which would be inconsistent with trying to moderate submissions -- either the site is a "common carrier" with no responsibility, or it assumes responsibility by moderating and perhaps rejecting some). It's one of those paradoxes -- if you try to do the right thing and "moderate" submissions or articles or forum content, you open yourself to stronger accusations that you really are responsible.

Another approach is to try to meet the "least common denominator" standards that would allow content to be "legal" in all or most jurisdictions. That would be a real headache, trying to figure out who has jurisdiction where and how to apply it in which languages.

Those are conditions that have to do with the legal system, and one could argue persuasively that an article or story would have to be pretty bad to be subject to legal sanctions in the US, where the server is or might be located.

I'd argue that we want to avoid even an accusation, even if it wouldn't stand a chance in court. For one thing it is too expensive to defend oneself.

But even more important, I'd say, is the component of reputation. If some fundie group (for example) gets on its high horse and sends letters to the hosting provider or posts names of dependents/loved ones of the identified owners of the site, it might become personally uncomfortable for them and the hosting provider might decide it doesn't want the hassle and evict the site.

I'd suggest that meeting the letter or even the principle of some or many countries' laws on pornography is irrelevant in that latter situation. It would be hard to argue artistic merit with a crowd of angry demonstrators who know what they know. It's even harder in some ways to argue artistic merit with anonymous complaints.

Talking about standards and such is good. I'd suggest if there are standards, that they be standards we want because we think they are right, not in order to meet some legal requirement of some jurisdiction -- there are too many, and it wouldn't do us any good anyway, to try to meet legal requirements. But if we do adopt standards, it should be with the full understanding that it is unlikely to stop complaints to the hosting provider or whatever, or lawsuits, or even criminal process.

I'd also suggest there is benefit in being a "common carrier" that lets people communicate with each other but doesn't undertake responsibility for or ownership of that content.

Finally, I'd suggest that "artistic merit" is pretty nebulous and subjective. How does one measure it? Would there be a list of guidelines someone could enumerate that three different people could use to all come up with the same answer? Or is it "I'll know it when I see it" and "trust the volunteer moderator to do the right thing"?

Many if not most of the stories on the old site were erotic. Are we saying that any new story site would not be erotic? Or that only the "adult" oriented stories could be erotic, while "minor" stories would need to avoid getting readers aroused? How would one measure that? Which readers? And would it matter anyway if the aforementioned fundies decided it was offensive?

... hard questions.

My avatar says 'I am shy.' It's true. My small collection of euncuh books are very well hidden and I think I'd die of shame if my mum saw them. But I still want to read stories, and you cant have a true eunuch if he's not castarted before puberty. So there needs to be stories that talk about children. (not those that encourgae men to go after children of course.) I want the stories back please.

gellyfregy,

I agree with your concerns. The act of moderating the stories is not clear on the subject of minor themes.

I believe, if the minor stories are to return, it will likely be like this;

1. The stories will be hosted on a different domain from the forums to prevent the forums being taken down by complaints, and loss of the stories domain. Mirror sites on different domains may also be employed for the stories, so if one domain is brought down, the mirrors remain.

2. In order

janekane (imported) wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:25 am to access the Fiction Archive,

readers will have to sign in with their user name and password.

3. Minor themed stories will be subject to peer review before publishing, or story voting will be employed, or readers will be allowed to flag stories as inappropriate, which will bump them off the archive if too many inappropriate flags are received.

4. Old minor themed stories would not return right away. Not until they have gone through review and re-submission by volunteers from the EA. They would have to meet the new submission guidelines, and be appropriately tagged.

5. I would like to see the submissions page include an author's explanation about what the story means, and what they hoped to accomplish. This would help moderators decide if the story has value to the eunuch community or not.

All the above is how I see it. I have no inside information on how it will play out. That will be decided at the MoM event. What I'm writing is just how I think it would best work.

Deciding factors will likely be, costs in time, costs in dollars, feasibility of accomplishing the above, and community willingness or involvement. To a lesser degree will come legality. The stories are legal. It was a question of perception that brought down the EA and the Fiction Archive, not a question of law.

I really don't know what will happen, but I think what I've laid out gives us the best of all possible worlds. We get to keep all the types of stories that help and give us joy, while best protecting the community as a whole.

If the endeavor also proves to be too expensive, then I would expect to see a donations drive, or possibly membership fees.