Page 11 of 18

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:21 pm
by A-1 (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Sat May 31, 2008 3:33 pm So sure you are as to use bold face and fancified fonts ? !

Did I do the quote right Yoli ?

There is a better argument that sexual identity occurs in

the development of the embryo, before one terms it a fetus.

At a critical time, a splash of male hormone directs the

development of the genitalia as well as certain anatomical

brain structures.

DSM is so much PC garbage.

There is a comment in the book "GENOME" that describes this process that you are attempting to identify. I am not sure exactly where, though, I will research and try to find the quote for you guys.

However, I do hold to my statements and feel strongly that the potential for child abuse exists in such policies as this thread sugests, not to mention the legal precedents that such a policy would imply.

I am not sure what the process should be to protect the child, in what you are suggesting, though. Tell me, in such a scenerio how would you go about identifying children in need?

I still disagree with this idea in principle, but from what you all tell me several of you were in need of intervention at that point in your lives, and it may well have been what you suggest that would have made you happy. It is hard to say "What IF"? now and not make yourselves bitter and regretful.

Please respond. Let us have a meaningful dialogue, even if you cannot convince me...

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:24 pm
by YankeeClipper (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Sat May 31, 2008 3:33 pm So sure you are as to use bold face and fancified fonts ? !

Did I do the quote right Yoli ?

There is a better argument that sexual identity occurs in

the development of the embryo, before one terms it a fetus.

At a critical time, a splash of male hormone directs the

development of the genitalia as well as certain anatomical

brain structures.

DSM is so much PC garbage.

Physical characteristics occur during the development of the fetus during the 11th to the 17th weeks of gestation. Self-awareness of one's sexual identity typically occurs by the 3rd year of the child's life.

That is why when the child is allowed to live and grow up as that they self-identify as they live quite comfortably, whereas, if they as forced to live as their physical characteristics mandate, they are much more like to remain in therapy throughout childhood and into adult as many here can attest to:

See: Support Your NPR Station.
13275) Dr. Zucker follows the approach that you seem to be recommending: force the child to live as the body has the physical characteristics of. For Bradley, his approach has been a disaster, for both the boy and his parents. In the case of the other 3 boys in the program, they are allowed to live as they perc
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri May 30, 2008 11:31 pm eive themselves to be with opposite results.

Also see: Transition in childhood, Q
&A with Norman Spack, The Boston Globe, March 30, 2008
13058)

Based on your statement, all children born as male, because of that "splash" of testosterone must also must self-identify as male, but that they also be heterosexual as well.

Treatments that you seem to propose, making a child live as their body dictates is exactly the thinking that was true up until the 1970's, when it was finally understood that homosexuality was a normal variant within the sexual development of a person's overall sexual identity.

In the program that Dr. Spack runs, and in the Dutch program, children are put on blockers until 16 (if you want to hold off until they are 18, I have no objection) then are allowed to transition (physically, since they are already living as the opposite sex), or taken off blockers to resume normal puberty as their body is. In the Dutch study, all 100 participants chose to transition, and all remain comfortable as they now are. Even Dr. Zucker and others that follow his approach have a success rate of at best 80% (this is the success rate that they put forward).

It is the mind that control both sexual orientation and sexual identity. I knew at 6 six that I was drawn to boys, and I am continued to be drawn to men. I was never molested as a child by any one.

DSM-IV may be "so PC much garbage," but it is the book that Dr. Zucker uses for his treatment, and it is the benchmark that mental-health professionals use, so it it must be addressed and updated accordingly. It "PC garbage" that finally got homosexuality out the category of a defined mental illness.

Or do you still hold to the view that homosexuality is a mental illness?

-YC

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:47 am
by Kangan (imported)
A very interesting debate. However, it would be helpful if certain parties would control their emotional outbursts. [I know - now you will go after me.... duh.]

The big problem that I see is that the child's brain is not yet mature enough to make this life changing decidion. That is why we have all those laws protecting children on the books. Just because a child can verbally consent to a sex change does not mean that they are mature enough to make this decision for themselves. There is also a problem with the parents of such a child being able to properly able make such an emotional and critical decision.

Until some sort of definitive test or crtieria can be developed to objectively ascertain whether the child would benefit from a sex change, this matter will continue to be controversial and questionable.

There is no doubt that many of us would have been better off to have been castrated at a young age. Hindsight is always 100% accurate. But how many more are NOT better off? Who can say. There are too many unknown factors here, and one answer does NOT fit all.

I guess the bottom line is that each case must be decided separately. Whether the right decision is made or not will not be known until many years afterwards.

I'd definitely prefer castration after puberty despite all the contrary arguments, but that is my personal view.

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:53 pm
by YankeeClipper (imported)
Kangan (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:47 am A very interesting debate. However, it would be helpful if certain parties would control their emotional outbursts. [I know - now you will go after me.... duh.]

The big problem that I see is that the child's brain is not yet mature enough to make this life changing decision. That is why we have all those laws protecting children on the books. Just because a child can verbally consent to a sex change does not mean that they are mature enough to make this decision for themselves. There is also a problem with the parents of such a child being able to properly able make such an emotional and critical decision.

Until some sort of definitive test or crtieria can be developed to objectively ascertain whether the child would benefit from a sex change, this matter will continue to be controversial and questionable.

There is no doubt that many of us would have been better off to have been castrated at a young age. Hindsight is always 100% accurate. But how many more are NOT better off? Who can say. There are too many unknown factors here, and one answer does NOT fit all.

I guess the bottom line is that each case must be decided separately. Whether the right decision is made or not will not be known until many years afterwards.

I'd definitely prefer castration after puberty despite all the contrary arguments, but that is my personal view.

Yes. I did break my own request in that one instance. Hell no, I'm no going to go after you.

And no. Delaying puberty is a far better than forcing puberty on a child that is in the wrong body. Too many parts of the body change in such a manner that make SRS far more difficult after puberty that if delayed that if puberty is delayed until the "child" is old enough to make a decision. (What age? 16, 18, 21? Whatever age is appropriate, give them the chance. Please read the citations below.)

At some point, the brain will be mature enough to make the appropriate decision involved as discussed here. Puberty should be delayed until then. Yes they may make the wrong decision, but ultimately, they should have the right to make decision, not have it make for them when they are still not old enough to make that decision on their own.

I also think that you're right about that parents are not always in the best position to make the "right" decision. But if they are not in the right decision to make the decision, then why should they have the right to do, when thir decision does NOT effect either of them, rather their child. Keep in mind though, that most of the BtG 'sand GtB's, that they have living as the opposite sex for more that just a few years and that remain comfortable living as they have been. The problem is with the effects that puberty causes (all the all physical adults know what those changes are), compared to those that not delaying cause (puberty happens later).

It is this reason that I have become out so strongly in favor of blockers. There is no longer a lack of proof that delaying puberty until age 16 is the appropriate course of action. Th critical questions are: is the child comfortable living as they allow to, or required to, and what is the success rate for each type of therapy.

Before puberty, the body is pretty much "neutral" making the transition of the body to the opposite sex far easier than after puberty. If blockers are used until later years, then they allow the person that has to live with the ultimate results of those decisions to make the decision when they are old enough to do so. Puberty can be delayed, if and until the "young adult" can make that decision for themselves.

None of the participants in the Dutch study chose to resume puberty in the sex of the body, instead, at 16, they chose to transition to the opposite sex. (I don't care what age you choose, but give them the choice.)

Dr. Spack's long-term work with transexuals shows the results of both delaying puberty and not delaying puberty.

Dr. Zucker's results (80 %) show the difficulty in not delaying puberty until post-puberty. His method can cause severe mental-health issues for candidates that are forced to go through puberty. How can a program that takes away everything that a child enjoys, and the banning of the color pink be considered non-coercive. In the citations listed below, Bradley is an excellent example of why forcing the sex of the body on to the child's mind, and puberty on a transsexual child, is so totally wrong.

Conversely, Dr.Spack's approach is non-coercive.

Give children the time necessary to make the ultimate decision that effect the remainder of their lives.

Yes, I was a boy, I always knew i was a boy, it was just what I was (and what I want to stay). For anyone here that is gay, this a good parallel to BtG's and GtB, that they come to realize that somehow they are different from what their body is, or that we have to be attracted to the opposite.

Dr. Zucker's approach mirrors exactly the type of "therapy" that was used for homosexuals. Ultimately, after much pain on the part of the patients, that did need such coercive therapy.

Using a coercive therapy with an acknowledged success rate of less than 80% compared to a non-coercive therapy with a success rate of 100% Why is the first type of therapy be used when the latter is available.

Oh, by-the-way, I did play with dolls, BUT, they were called GI Joe's. :)

As usual, my citations: Support Your NPR Station
JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm (http://www.eunu[quote="YankeeClipper (impo
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:24 pm rted)" time=1212154260]
ch.org/vbulletin/showthread.ph
p?t=
13275) and Transition in childhood, Q&A
[/quote]
with Norman Spack, The Boston Globe, March 30, 2008.
13058)

At least they have a way to present, but those of here that wanted to remain boys, BtE,s how do we begin convince parents that you want to avoid puberty and the resulting effects?

-YC

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 pm
by moi621 (imported)
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:24 pm Physical characteristics occur during the development of the fetus during the 11th to the 17th weeks of gestation. Self-awareness of one's sexual identity typically occurs by the 3rd year of the child's life.

Or do you still hold to the view that homosexuality is a mental illness?

-YC

Now of course there are exceptions, developmental mishaps, etc.

but remember, at that 11 to 17th week of gestation there is also

brain development that can be anatomically defined differentiating

male from female. Incidentally, some homosexual men have been

found to have brain structures more similar to females. Only, some.

I do not hold with the DSM as I do not believe homosexuality is a

mental illness. Just demonstrates the "political" influence in this

diagnostic guide - as I wrote earlier.

In the '70's, male babies born with incomplete male parts were,

converted to females in their first year of life. Guess what !

Many felt male in a females body later in life.

Likewise the well known case study of the boy who lost his

penis in the first year of life due to a botched circumcision.

Family advised to raise him as a female. Didn't work.

The baby cried when first placed in a dress. Baby knew,

according to mother/lady who raised him.

Certainly, gender awareness occurs well before age 3.

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:31 pm
by Blaise (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 pm Baby knew, according to mother/lady who raised him. Certainly, gender awareness occurs well before age 3.
I recall how all this amazed me in 1976-77, when I first heard lectures on the material. Clearly, much can happen or not happen from conception onward.

I first heard a psychiatrist in Portland who lectured during a seminar Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon presented, mostly on the theme of homosexuality. The speaker was trying to introduce the notion that how ambiguous what we consider making simple distinctions really is. That is one reason that I hesitate making too many statements on this topic, because we need to know more than we think that we know. Great thread. You mention some of the salient moments in thie recent history of the topic.

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:30 pm
by YankeeClipper (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 pm Now of course there are exceptions, developmental mishaps, etc.

But remember, at that 11 to 17th week of gestation there is also brain development that can be anatomically defined differentiating male from female. Incidentally, some homosexual men have been found to have brain structures more similar to females. Only, some.

I do not hold with the DSM as I do not believe homosexuality is a mental illness. Just demonstrates the "political" influence in this diagnostic guide - as I wrote earlier.

In the '70's, male babies born with incomplete male parts were, converted to females in their first year of life. Guess what ! Many felt male in a females body later in life.

Likewise the well known case study of the boy who lost his penis in the first year of life due to a botched circumcision. Family
(not Family, Dr. Money)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 pm advised to raise him as a female. Didn't work. The baby cried when first placed in a dress. Baby knew, according to his mother who raised him.

Certainly, gender awareness occurs well before age 3.

I agree with exactly your own last statements:

"
moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 pm Likewise the well known case study of the boy who lost his penis in the first year of life due to a botched circumcision. Family
(not Family, Dr. Money)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 pm advised to raise him as a female. Didn't work. The baby cried when first placed in a dress. Baby knew, according to his mother." "Certainly, gender awareness occurs well before age 3.
"

This is exactly what I'm trying to highlight: that the mind knows the correct sexual identity he or she is. You can't take a girl that has a boy's body and really convince the child she is a boy, any more than you can take boy, turn him into a physical girl and make him believe he is a girl.

The case you refer to above is that of David Reimer. See: Being Brenda, THE GUARDIAN, London, Wednesday, 12 May 2004. (http://www.cirp.org/news/theguardian05-12-04)

In fact, to anyone taking an interest in the development of psychology in the 1970s and 1980s, Reimer's life story would have long been infamous, but also pseudonymous. Going by the name "John", and subsequently "Joan", David Reimer had been an unwitting guinea-pig - along with his identical twin brother Brian - in a medical experiment at first celebrated, then notorious. Masterminded by a prominent Baltimore physician, John Money, it was an attempt to settle, once and for all, the fraught nature-versus-nurture debate: to prove that gender was so fluid that by a mere change in childrearing practice, plus a little surgery, a boy could be turned into a girl, while his twin developed as a male.

It would split the world of sexual psychology in two. And after 12 years of traumatising treatment, followed by a further two decades spent attempting to repair the damage, it would drive David Reimer to his death."It was like brainwashing," Reimer once said, having resumed his male identity after a childhood spent as Brenda. "I'd give just about anything to go to a hypnotist to black out my whole past. Because it's torture. What they did to you in the body is sometimes not near as bad as what they did to you in the mind."

This, if anything, shows that sexual identity is in the mind, not in the configuration of the body. The tragic case of David shows how important it is that sexual identity be accepted, rather forcing conformance of sexual identity to the sexual characteristics of the body.

Dr. Money hold to the same view that Dr. Zucker holds: Coerce the mind to conform to match that of the body. Dr. Money refuses to comment at all concerning this case.

Dr. Spack takes the opposite approach, with notable success. He believes that puberty should be delayed until the child is old enough to pursue SRS.

Again, whether it be 16, 18, 21, or 25, whatever age is chosen, the child/adult should have the choice to make such an important before the body deviate further and further from the sexual identity they know themselves to be. Thus blockers should be used until whatever age is chosen. 16 is the age that has been used with success with Dr. Spack and the doctors in Holland for Phase II (when boys are allowed to take estrogen, and girls, testosterone) to begin. Until Phase II, only blockers are used to prevent sterility. Once Phase II is started, sterility will occur.

Gender Identity is usually viewed as a mental-health disorder, it is not a disorder anymore than homosexuality is. It is the sexual identity that child holds of itself. Whether the body is in conformation with the mind or not, the sexual identity of the child is just that, the identity resides in the mind, not in the body.

-YC

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:57 pm
by curious_guy (imported)
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri May 30, 2008 10:20 pm When I was in high school, boys were hitting puberty about 2 years later than they do now, and teasing was rare back then. Some boys hadn't (visibly) started puberty until they senior year, most by 15 though. The school, in general, teachers, classmates and friends would have it stopped any teasing immediately.

-YC

When I started ninth grade in the late sixties, in Southern California, over 95% of the boys in my grade had started puberty. I remember being startled to see a boy in the ninth grade but in a different P.E. class who looked completely prepubescent. He might have been the only prepubescent boy who had P.E. at that time.

When and where did you go to high school? Was it during a time of food shortages or rationing?

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:46 am
by Blaise (imported)
Blaise (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:31 pm I recall how all this amazed me in 1976-77, when I first heard lectures on the material. Clearly, much can happen or not happen from conception onward.

I recall that the psychiatrist talked about John Money. Someone else much later named Dr. Money an ethically challenged sexologist. I own two or three of Money's books; they probably are still worth reading, but I find myself resisting referring to them because of his distorting that famous case. We need to take great care in prescribing what other people ought to do with their sexual identities. I think that is the thrust of this thread. This is a place where the work of Michel Foucault bears on the discussion. Everyone owes the memory David Reimer that respect.

Re: Castrating Boys And Adolescents

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:30 am
by A-1 (imported)
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:53 pm Yes. I did break my own request in that one instance. Hell no, I'm no going to go after you.

And no. Delaying puberty is a far better than forcing puberty on a child that is in the wrong body. Too many parts of the body change in such a manner that make SRS far more difficult after puberty that if delayed that if puberty is delayed until the "child" is old enough to make a decision. (What age? 16, 18, 21? Whatever age is appropriate, give them the chance. Please read the citations below.)

At some point, the brain will be mature enough to make the
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:30 pm appropriate decision involved as
discussed here. Puberty should be delayed until then. Yes they may make the wrong decision, but ultimately, they should have the right to make decision, not have it make for them when they are still not old enough to make that decision on their own.

I also think that you're right about that parents are not always in the best position to make the "right" decision. But if they are not in the right decision to make the decision, then why should they have the right to do, when thir decision does NOT effect either of them, rather their child. Keep in mind though, that most of the BtG 'sand GtB's, that they have living as the opposite sex for more that just a few years and that remain comfortable living as they have been. The problem is with the effects that puberty causes (all the all physical adults know what those changes are), compared to those that not delaying cause (puberty happens later).

It is this reason that I have become out so strongly in favor of blockers. There is no longer a lack of proof that delaying puberty until age 16 is the appropriate course of action. Th critical questions are: is the child comfortable living as they allow to, or required to, and what is the success rate for each type of therapy.

Before puberty, the body is pretty much "neutral" making the transition of the body to the opposite sex far easier than after puberty. If blockers are used until later years, then they allow the person that has to live with the ultimate results of those decisions to make the decision when they are old enough to do so. Puberty can be delayed, if and until the "young adult" can make that decision for themselves.

None of the participants in the Dutch study chose to resume puberty in the sex of the body, instead, at 16, they chose to transition to the opposite sex. (I don't care what age you choose, but give them the choice.)

Dr. Spack's long-term work with transexuals shows the results of both delaying puberty and not delaying puberty.

Dr. Zucker's results (80 %) show the difficulty in not delaying puberty until post-puberty. His method can cause severe mental-health issues for candidates that are forced to go through puberty. How can a program that takes away everything that a child enjoys, and the banning of the color pink be considered non-coercive. In the citations listed below, Bradley is an excellent example of why forcing the sex of the body on to the child's mind, and puberty on a transsexual child, is so totally wrong.

Conversely, Dr.Spack's approach is non-coercive.

Give children the time necessary to make the ultimate decision that effect the remainder of their lives.

Yes, I was a boy, I always knew i was a boy, it was just what I was (and what I want to stay). For anyone here that is gay, this a good parallel to BtG's and GtB, that they come to realize that somehow they are different from what their body is, or that we have to be attracted to the opposite.

Dr. Zucker's approach mirrors exactly the type of "therapy" that was used for homosexuals. Ultimately, after much pain on the part of the patients, that did need such coercive therapy.

Using a coercive therapy with an acknowledged success rate of less than 80% compared to a non-coercive therapy with a success rate of 100% Why is the first type of therapy be used when the latter is available.

Oh, by-the-way, I did play with dolls, BUT, they were called GI Joe's. :)

As usual, my citations: Support Your NPR Station
JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm (http:
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:53 pm //www.eunu[quote="YankeeClipper (impo
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:24 pm rted)
" time=1212154260]
ch.org/vbulletin/showthread.ph
[
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:53 pm /quote]
p?t=
13275) and Transition in childhood, Q&A
with Norman Spack, The Boston Globe, March 30, 2008.
JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm (http://www.eunuch.org
/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=
13058)

At least they have a way to present, but those of here that wanted to remain boys, BtE,s how do we begin convince parents that you want to avoid puberty and the resulting effects?

-YC

The problem with delaying puberty is that the skeletal (for example) secondary sexual characteristics occur during the period of growth from approximately 10 years of age (or whenever puberty starts) until around age 18 when the bone growth centers fuse.

Thus, you affe
YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Mon May 26, 2008 4:25 pm ct the growth of the individual in
many bodily systems in addition to the reproductive system and the visable secondary sexual characteristics.

In those with ambiguous sex differentiation this is quite another issue. Their physical growth is already affected but in individuals who are normally gendered, and who fall within your criteria, physical growth may already be an issue that is complicating identity formation and contributing to their issues with sexuality.

YC, it is a very, very, complicated issue, in addition to a controversial one.

We must consider, just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should be done.