thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am This could very well revolutionize the way we percieve ourselves.....Most here have a strong desire to be castrated; some have difficulty explainy why exactly. This week I believe I found an answer! And it's absolutely wonderful! And may well include everyone! Please have a read, carefully and be honest with yourself. I hope you can find truth and peace in this explanation. And I hope to be able to prove this theory for you after.....

What if we are eunuchs in male bodies? ...

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am So EVEN UNCUT MALES among us may be diagnosed as "genderless"), (eunuch in the mind, just as already said!)....Of course, excessive masturbation and interest in sex forces this issue in your face and fuels the anger towards the offending parts of your body. You didn't want to be driven by hormones! You may even dislike body hair; as it is a direct symbol of manhood.

I've taken the test several times and know that I'm androgynous - on the cusp of effiminate. I behave in accordance with this in everyday life. I've previously understood that this may explain some of the ease with which I approached the notion of castration. Psychologists and sex counsellors, including those such as Gianna Israel, use such notions to assist clients in coming to terms with castration desires.

However, there are many males - my current BF included - that test on the effeminate side, but have no desire to lose their testicles. Both of us, more him than me, seek to crossdress on occasion. Nor are all those whom are effeminate even become gay. It likely increases the probability. I did not hate my testicles or my gender. I understand that people of either gender may be androgynous. That's the nature of androgyny. I know in my case that undescended testicles, inguinal hernias and testicular pain from the scar tissue stemming from the numerous infections of the epididymis led to my decision to lose my balls. I'm not sure I would have acted on the inclination had the physiological issues not also been present. I only acted after the physiological problems led me to the conclusion I'd not be any worse off - might indeed be better off - without the pain and discomfort associated with the testicles. While my family doctor let me know that he didn't understand or accept my decision to be nutted, he nevertheless did agree that I'd not be worse off. He even agreed I would have free reign to subscribe to an HRT regime once the organs were removed.

Anyway, I think I'm saying that while the gender test may explain and help us understand our approach to gender and sexuality, there are other issues involved in developing a fixation on being castrated and the decision to follow through and be castrated or nullified. I'm not sure contributors thus far to this thread would disagree with my conclusion. BTW, I'm content that the decision to be castrated was OK for me. I enjoy being ballless. The only regret that I share with many others is that I didn't do it many years earlier.

Thanks for everyone's input! Clearly there are holes in this idea.

But Jeff, I feel your condition does fit into the model. Think about it - if you've suffered problems with your reproductive organs; (particularly one that happens at birth, and you will be aware of through childhood) can clearly have some impact on the way you see yourself, and perhaps provide a bit of distance between you as an 'ideal' male and the reality.

As you said :

JeffEunuch (imported) wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:15 am I'm not sure I would have acted on the inclination had the physiological issues not also been present.

Precisely, because if you were 'perfect' then you would have had a strongly identified as male, maybe castration would never have occured to you. You may have simply put up with some of the problems.

[Some men would rather risk death by cancer than have their manhood removed!]

But I agree, there is a huge hole if someone can be diagnosed androgenous or effiminate with no desire to be castrated.

Just wanted to say sorry for sounding like a presumptuous know-it-all in this thread. I'm not normally like this and I do apologise

It was just a burst of inspiration that worked for me. And I felt wonderful when I realised what I was and accepted myself. (call it a personal deamon that was finally laid to rest!)

But, obviously if this idea doesn't work for everyone, then it's not much use to us as a whole!

All the comments posted here, remind me of the rich and diverse community that this is.

I'll keep my feet on the ground in future!

~Rog.

Hi Everyone,

I just took the test you are referring too and scored 355 Category 4 and I think if their were a category above that I would have maxed out if it were not for the male role I have been forced to adhear to sense I was very young. I have taken the test a couple times in the last 3 years and it has always come out as 4 which I think is absolutely wonderful as it comes to NO surprise to me. I would give up my life as it is today and over the years if I could come back as FEMALE. I think female and I am a very compassionate and understanding individual(female ). The best thing I have done as a "man" is to have started Female Hormone Treatment a few years ago and I have had a prostecomy so I am impudent already... I just need to get rid of this grotesque sac hanging under my belly and then swap out the (?) for a vagina. I would be the happiest person you could ever meet. Okay, enough about myself... I truly hope everyone that is questioning their gender finds out what their true identity is and has the choice and option to do something about. I can be a very painful life living something that you truly know you are NOT.

Hi ya'll,

Meredeth How did you get 355, catagory 4? I scored 155 category 4. That test was a little wierd. Of course I took it as an intersexual, other than body parts, I didnt understand my out come. I'm feminine!!! no kidding. but I still like my lil weenie and wanna keep it.I live as both or neither, sometimes butch and sometimes not so butch, often confusing other people and sometimes confusing myself, lmao.

Hi!

It is so good to see you online again

Here are my thoughts about my sexuality.

I wouldn't even divide things between feminine, masculine, androgynous.

I have allways felt that me and my sexuality are different parts in me. I feel like sexuality (sex drive) was glued on me at puberty, only sexuality is not true part of me it is like an attachment I have to deal with sometimes, well quite often.

It seems like normal people do not feel difference between their mind and sexuality. Sexuality is an integral part of their mind. They are not concious about their behaviour exact reason. Whether the behaviour was caused by sexuality or by his/her true mind. For example: somebody says: I like tanned and tall women and I like icecream. For normal people what is important is that they like such things. They like things and dislike things no matter what is causing liking or disliking.

In my mind all things that have anything to do with sexual behaviour are recognized immediately and tagged. It just happens inside me.

Allright, perhaps I am not the best here to clarify my thoughts, but I hope you got the point.

when i was 13 or 14 I remember that I really did not want to have all these changes that comes with puberty. If I had a real choice back then I think I stayed a boy for much longer. Only I had no choice. I could imagine how society would have reacted and this (so old but still looks like a boy!!) is a reason why I had chosen to go through puberty. I did not know much about eunuchs and castrates back then.

Real interest in castration started later at age 16.

Fraj, I think there may well be a sexual orientation that is nonsexual and I think maybe that's what you're getting at. That test though is not the right thing to prove that (for reasons discussed above).

One thing that confuses the whole gender identity issue is that not only do we feel varying levels of attraction to specific genders but we may also feel repulsion for specific genders. For example as a heterosexual man, I really don't like (actually nauseating to me) looking at naked male bodies -- so this leads to me not liking my own body. This is also why some heterosexual guys cross-dress.

Perhaps in addition to the attraction factor, the repulsion (and potentially self-repulsion) factor needs to be considered in gender identity classifications.

This also means there are many combinations that could be considered eunuchs:

- A eunuch may simply feel no attraction to anything and be naturally non-sexual. Note that technically a female could be this kind of eunuch.

- A eunuch may be repulsed by both males or females and therefore be non-sexual. Note that technically a female could be this kind of eunuch.

- A eunuch may be a male who is attracted to females (hetero) but is so repulsed by males that he can't stand his own genitals.

- A eunuch may be a male who attracted to males (gay) but also repulsed by males. (I actually think this is possible.) These guys are internally conflicted and would rather be non-sexual.

- A eunuch may be a male who is attracted to females but also repulsed by females. These guys are also conflicted and would rather be non-sexual.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am This could very well revolutionize the way we percieve ourselves. We may all be here for exactly the same reason (even those of us who have suffered terrible childhood abuse!)

Most here have a strong desire to be castrated;

Yes, exactly... do we really need any more reason than that? There's also the support

JeffEunuch (imported) wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:15 am ers, who are here for those who want to

get neutered.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am What if we are eunuchs in male bodies? If you've taken the COGIATI Test (http://transsexual.org/cgi-bin/cgitest.exe?)

Oh that thing. I score... 190 on it? 'course I do have transgender issues. Says I need to get myself to a counselor, too bad I don't have health insurance.

Wouldn't people with feminine brains be more inclined to go with the flow than strongly assert themselves? I always saw cross dressing as a pretty aggressive statement, even if it's males in dresses. Oddly masculine, I suppose, from the extra aggression. I just try to dress up this body however makes it look good. Would you dress your boyfriend up in a dress, if you were a woman?

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am But for all of us, as you developed into adolescence, you realise (even subconciously) that societies view of your gender may prevent you from doing those things which are perhaps not considered so masculine (maybe you enjoyed home economics (but need to keep it quiet from your school friends), maybe you are homosexual (but are afriad how loved one's will react), or didn't mind playing dolls with your neighbour, (but were afriad what others might think). There are many little clues to look for in your childhood. (I'll give examples from my life in a moment)

I've been pretty immune to that social stigma really. It's pretty much default for me to do whatever's average, but if there's a reason to be weird and abnormal, I have all the more respect for those who depart from the status quo. Only reason I didn't like home economics was the most complicated thing we cooked was quesidillas (take tortilla, add cheese, microwave). I'm not really sexual, but if I was it'd be fine to be homosexual. I usually have better luck with boys anyway. And I loved playing dolls, though Barbie got the hair tearing head removal and toss over the backyard fence treatment; I was such a persipacious sociologist . My Little Ponies on the other hand would wage grand adventures on the high seas every time I took a bath.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Of course, excessive masturbation and interest in sex forces this issue in your face and fuels the anger towards the offending parts of your body. You didn't want to be driven by hormones! You may even dislike body hair; as it is a direct symbol of manhood.

Ugh, yeah. You should have seen the obsession my stupid father had over me starting shaving. I don't mind body hair really though, shouldn't women have it too? Facial hair is the male distinction mostly. The masturbation thing is true though, and it hypes you up on orgasmo drugs so you can't even stay upset!

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am It should come as no surprise then, when most of us here begin self-harming between 11-14 just when the effects of puberty are shown and felt. And the desparate realization that we are not what we are meant to be. It also explains why a lot will self-harm during masturbation sessions.

Well, I don't like hurting all that much. :-/ I tried some stuff, but mostly just didn't have anything to be done. Hurting onesself and castrating onesself are two different things I think. I may enjoy the occasional self inflicted pain, but it's a separate thing to remove the testicles thanks to the miracle of modern anesthetics.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am The proof : became crystal clear thinking of my childhood. I (like many here) remember myself as perfectly masculine. And not at all girlish. But when I Really thought hard I realised this is a distorted eunuch-esque way of seeing things.

Well, watch out for the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You can't say that if you haven't agreed with me, then you haven't thought about it hard enough. Because the definition of "enough" then becomes a circular logic trap.

A) When I thought *really* hard, I concluded B

B) I'm seeing things in a distorted way.

C) "*really* hard" is defined as hard enough to conclude B.

when I conclude B, I therefore concluded B.

Otherwise you're right: many of us do have "gender bending" moments. But many normal, masculine, virile, non-castrating males have those moments too. Our culture is so messed up, it's almost impossible for any male not to "betray" the masculine extreme at some point.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Think carefully; do you ever remember a time in your life when a parent, teacher or perhaps a friend told you something was really meant for girls, but you thought nothing of it, because you just enjoyed the activity or object for what it was?

Yes, frequently.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Ever prefer to play Netball (which girls were made to play) instead of Football (which the boys played) at elementary school? But just preferred the game, because it was gentler and you were better at it?

I despise Football. -_- If I want to watch big strapping guys colliding with each other, I'll do it from the sidelines thanks. I really don't respect people who think it's cool to give each other concussions.

And yes, I both mean American Rugby and Soccer. :nutsycuck

What I liked to play was um... I like aerobic stuff, like dance, and Aikido. Don' get to do those at the moment though... might have access to a small workout room soon though.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Did you ever shop for new glasses, only to be told by mother that the pair you wanted was 'meant for girls', but you just liked the design?

Not really actually. It's practically impossible with all the new age sleek frame designs (gotta keep pretending we're innovating, ha!), to find glasses that are definitively male or female.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Ever enjoy Home Economics at school, but kept it quiet because your friends might tease you for it?

Tease me? They begged me for my food related creations! No not really, but the potlucks my family put together most always were empty by the end.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Ever collect Wish-nik trolls with colourful hair you could re-arrange (they bring luck too!) but thought nothing of it?

I used to collect My Little Ponies, but they've been oxidizing off in the garage for like, a decade now. These days I collect memorable quotes, websites, and comics. I did get a kick out of those trolls' moldable hair though, for a little.

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Ever have trouble using urinals, and would rather sit down (because it's less gender-specific and makes you feel comfortable)

Nope, took to it like a fish to water! I'm totally shameless. I do sit down when there isn't a urinal though, it just works better that way. Ever seen those old-style Japanese toilets?

thefraj (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:09 am Were you ever happy to play around at a girl-friends house with her dolls or pet hamster, but thought nothing of it, because it was kinda neat.

Never liked doll houses so much, something about the crass commercialism just tormented my young brain. I was like, "What does Marbie which toaster to match with her kitchen curtains?" But hamsters? Ratties? Aww, they're so nose-y and cuddly and tasty lookin'

I fail to see how cuddling a large rodent to your busom has anything to do with not being masculine. u.u

Wish I could keep a rat. The person giving me room and board has cats though, and they already want to get in my room badly enough, they'd start carving an entrance if there was the smell of prey inside. Evil things cats can be...

Thanks for pointing us to the Cogiati test! I was pleased but not overly surprised to learn that I am a Class 3 androgyne. I think that means I'd be a great eunuch, and life might be simpler but not terribly different if my balls were cut off. Does this mean that I can't put "straight acting and straight looking" in my personals anymore?? (Just kidding, never stooped to that, using the phrase I mean.) On the transexual side, all I wish for is that I could wear eye makeup, but I don't think I could pull that off in Michigan today. Love guys with eye makeup! Think of Johnny Depp in "Pirates"! Hot!!!

More seriously, I don't know if we've hit on a solution to the "eunuch problem" (if there is a "eunuch problem,") but this test does seem to confirm that there is a "third sex" option, and eunuchs fit the bill, even if we are just "eunuchs in our heads" for the moment.

Hi All

dolphinwolf- I have no idea how I got a 355 other than that is a more definitive indication of being female. I have no doubt that I am 95-98% female in mind and soul and I am proud of it. I do know however, that most therapist, if not all, will not except the COGIATI Test results. It really means nothing to them. Even though I felt female starting at a very young age, I knew that I didn't belong to the male gender but back then but, I had no idea what it meant. The information and resources we have today, where not available. I did know that growing up in the South (Texas) , that I looked male, had the male plumbing so I was expected to act male. In the fifties and sixties you did not question your sexuality or at least publicly or to your family for that matter. So therefore, I had no choice but to act the male part. I have lived a life of confusion, anger and an outsider that I always felt much more comfortable and natural to chat and hangout with my female friends. I still feel the same way, as I have always had more female friends than male. In fact I have never had a male best friend. I do not by any means pretend to have all or any of the answers for that matter, and that Gender Identity is a very complicated subject.... Actually, I think the self proclaimed experts are the ones who make this issue so complicated. I know what I am, I know what I should be and that is all that matters to me. Through some research I have done over the years, they now say that a good indicator of an individual being Transsexual or Transgended started with their mother and the type of person she was.... Well if you knew my mom, you would have no doubt and totally inderstand that I am TG. She fits all the criteria to a tee.... I am extremely proud to be female in mind and soul but it goes without saying how disappointed and disgusted I am with the body I was so cruelly thrown into... I can only hope that when I die that I will come back as the female I should have been in the beginning.... I guess I want nature to correct its cruel joke and make amends.

Love and respect to all...