YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:40 pm Castrating Boys And Adolescents

I hope this topic can be discussed rationally; I think that too many people don't even want the discussion to occur at all. That is unfortunate, as without opening up the discussion, then all boys are destined to pass through puberty.

Do we, or any adult, truly have the right to mandate to every boy that they pass through puberty and adolescence?

I find it interesting that several members of the EA have apparently changed their minds since the first discussion ended some time ago. My own view is that there are many reasons that minors, both prepubescent and not, might want to seek voluntary castration. As in the case of adults, those views should be respected. Canadian jurisprudence generally entitles children to control their own development destiny at age 12. A wrong decision can be mitigated. Implants can be inserted into the sac. HRT can be commenced. Sperm can even be banked in the case of pubescent castrates, and adoption is always available as well. Of course, we also know of many minors for whom castration was the wrong choice. For this reason safeguards need to be put in place. In the end a man or boy w/o balls or genitals is still a full human.

You type about Rights, But it is really about Power, and conformity, Not Rights.

Adult men and to a lesser extent women, Have the power to decide what they want for boys, Not boys.

Look at what our fathers did on the reservations in the North American way of dealing with Indians. We sterilized/Neutered over 1,000,000 ind nas of both genders in the first 70 years of the twentieth century. The reasons/excuses given were wide ranging from helping to stop sexually transmitted ills, helping to tame them, so they would better fit into white culture.

We even took the children away from the parents to "Educate" them in how to act like white men and women, We forced the loss of "Indian" culture, language , and religion. In those schools they were forced to worship the Protestant god, as a Protestant should! They also claimed that by enabling the "Indians" to have a higher standard of living without all those kids, they would be more ‘Civilized’

When ‘WE’ decide something for a lessor being, Indian, Children, Blacks, and of course animals, we try to create them in our image. Why? We want to Prove we are the only right way to be! And We have the power, for now, and we will use it our way!

Sal-limpone@excite.com (Sal-limpone@excite.com) AKA sal.limpone

I'm glad this topic came back to life. I've read enough posts to know for sure that wanting to be castrated often kicks in before puberty. My love for eunuchs certainly did.

I assume that when it is claimed that pre-pubertal castrates can't masturbate, it is meant that they can't masturbate to an adult-type orgasm and ejaculation. I remember vividly that I greatly enjoyed playing with my little "thing" in boyhood and derived great pleasure from it. Especially do I remember, while watching Johnny Weissmuller cavorting nearly naked on the silver screen as Tarzan, frantically pumping my thing with my jacket in my lap to conceal what I was doing. Eventually, I would experience a wonderful feeling, qualitatively quite different from an adult orgasm, but very enjoyable. Perhaps, at age 8 or 9 my little testicles were producing enough testosterone to permit me to experience a kind of orgasm, but they can't have been very active, for they were hardly more sensitive than any other part of my body. Even if struck, they did not produce the intense "testicular" pain which they did after pubescence. This sensitivity is usually considered to be an indicator of testicular activity. So, I wonder if masturbation is really impossible for pre-pubertal castrates, or is it merely inferior to what it would have been after pubescence ?

Bagoas (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:15 am I assume that when it is claimed that pre-pubertal castrates can't masturbate, it is meant that they can't masturbate to an adult-type orgasm and ejaculation.

No.

Every one of the pre-pubital eunuchs I know lost the ability to acheive erection within about one month of their castration and thus cannot masturbate.

A few had dry orgasms before, including the 15 year-old, the others produced clear fluid. None retained erectile function.

YC

I cannot comment on castrating boys, but often, people born with male plumbing have a female gender--what we often call transsexual.

Girls born with boy bodies generally know about it long before puberty. From Annie Richards' wonderful page on Treatment of Young MTF Transsexuals:

http://annierichards.tripod.com/young.htm

According to one study, two thirds of transsexual boys are aware that they belong to the opposite sex and exhibit noticeable "cross-gender behaviour" by age 5, and 77% by age 10. Another study of 137 MTF transsexuals confirms these figures, finding 70% exhibited cross-gender behaviour before age 10, and another 20% before age 15.

Although the child may not admit to his transsexual desires at this stage, the parents will often start to have some concerns about their son. The onset of puberty is a critical point as the child is faced with his own undesired physical masculinisation, often combined with a great jealously of girls and their physical changes, by age 15 some 90% are exhibiting feminine behaviour. This is the point where many transsexual children finally admit to their wish to be a girl and they, or their parents, seek help.

Years ago, help for young TS people was very restricted, and even not allowed in Western countries. However, the Standard of Care do now allow the prevention of puberty in young transsexuals:

http://www.hbigda.org/socv6.cfm

Adolescents may be eligible for puberty-delaying hormones as soon as pubertal changes have begun. In order for the adolescent and his or her parents to make an informed decision about pubertal delay, it is recommended that the adolescent experience the onset of puberty in his or her biologic sex, at least to Tanner Stage Two. If for clinical reasons it is thought to be in the patient's interest to intervene earlier, this must be managed with pediatric endocrinological advice and more than one psychiatric opinion.

I certainly wish that I could have had that treatment prior to my hideous male puberty. And I do know people who were able to transition prior to puberty. Life is so much more normal. Again from Annie Richards:

However it is important to note that many boy-to-girl transsexual's do not consider themselves to be transsexual - indeed they often actively dislike being called such - they just consider themselves to be girls. The brutal reality is that young transgirls often associate the word "transsexual" with TV documentaries featuring strange middle-aged men, married with children, who at the end of the programme still look, sound and behave like balding men wearing dresses to their very discriminating eyes and standards. Young transgirls simply can not relate themselves with these examples of transsexuality - their problems are totally different, and even passing is rarely one of them.

It is people like me who endure the discrimination--they can avoided it and I see no reason why they should suffer. A good example is Natta (featured in Annie's page). She was the one that took care of me for several weeks after my SRS. She started estrogen at age 11 and had SRS herself at age 16. I am so jealous!

It seems that the prevention of puberty for TS girls is an optimal idea. Their lives can be so much better than those of us who endure the wrong puberty.

Hugs,

Kelly

Thank you, Kelly, for your informed and informative response. You sent me scurrying to my bookshelf to find the full definition for Tanner Stage 2. For the benefit of others, here it is….

Tanner Stage 2

BOYS:

A. Height increases at basal rate: 5-6 cm/year

B. Testes 4 ml or long axis 2.5 to 3.2 cm (Average age 11.5 years – normal range 9.5 to 13.5 years)

C. Minimal coarse, pigmented hair at base of penis (Average age 12.0 years – normal range 9.9 to 14.0 years)

C. Earliest increased length and width of penis (Average age 11.5 years – normal range 10.5-14.5 years)

GIRLS:

A. Height increases at accelerated rate: 7-8 cm/year

B. Breast buds palpable and areolae enlarge (Average age 10.9 years – normal range 8.9-12.9 years)

C. Minimal coarse, pigmented pubic hair mainly on labia (Average age 11.2 years – normal range 9.0-13.4 years)

No, no, and NO. There is obviously a distubing number of people on here who fantasize about children, particularly chilren who become mutilated/castrated for some reason. That's bad enough. To want to castrate children so they can attain some imagined state of "choirboy" or whatever the hell it is is ever more pathetic and disgusting. I don't even favor allowing youth who may be transsexuals to undergo surgery. In worst case scenario, they should be prescribed anti-androgens to delay the onset of masculinization and nothing more. When you're 18 and had more time to think about it, THEN is the time to start hormones and procede to more irreversible procedures.

I'm probably one of the very few people on here who have actually HAD orchiectomy surgery. It's a tough thing to go through, and the ill prepared can suffer serious after effects. I've known I was transgendered since I was very young, but I waited until 25 to have surgery. Why? To be on the safe side. There are plenty of regret stories out there, and on here. A lot of people regret their surgeries.

All of the mutilation fetishes, pedophilia thinly disguised under a veneer of concern ("if children have unnecessary surgery they won't grow up" ala Michal Jackson) and projecting of sexual fantasies on to minors is the reason I don't come here anymore. I'm not one of those spineless PC types that says "well, anything goes when it comes to sex and it's all relative." It's not. I'm disgusted by some of the stuff people on here imagine. Anyone thinking about children in this way needs help or to be in jail.

OK, first off – try not to kill one another with this thread.

Discuss rationally and display your intellect – not your raw or knee-jerk emotions. Only in this manner can we have everyone’s opinions to share in a logical fashion.

If you can’t make a rational and fact-based (with some thought-out personal feelings interjected, yes that’s fine) reply, then please cool down and try it again later.

The purpose of this thread is not to start a flame war, regardless of how you feel about the topic(s). Any off-shoots of the topics, tangents if you will, should be treated in the same manner. The issue of theoretical young ‘wannabe’s’ should be included in this.

As we have already seen, there are those who believe that they have encountered persons under the magical age of 18 that seem to be precocious enough to make such a radical decision. I personally have yet to meet any along these lines. I’ve been hit with just about everything else in my adventures in boy-raising, but this isn’t one of them – yet.

One piece of advice for the unmarried marriage counselors, though – don’t pretend to be an expert on a subject that you know nothing about. This is much like priests and nuns giving marital or sexual advice. Our renowned Sister is the only nun qualified for this.

My own thoughts on the manner remain pretty much unchanged from the original discourse that we had long ago, however. While I do not doubt that there are boys out there who could definitely benefit in myriad ways from DELAYING puberty via chemical means supervised by professionals in the medical field, I still do not believe that there are boys out there who are capable of understanding the life-altering action of castration before or AT puberty. Holding it off is one thing – surgery is quite another.

One closing note – if this thread offends you that much, then either don’t read it and don’t reply to it – OR – try to come up with a rational defense of your thoughts.

Like it or not, the issue of castration (and other alterations and abuses) of minors has been around since Time Immemorial and still is. If you can’t handle that or accept it, then I’m not sure what to tell you.