Hey there John, and welcome to the EA! I am glad you joined here and hope you find the archive useful and that you will add to it's diversity. Indeed, yours is an exceptionally peculiar case in our modern world. Jimmy Scott aside, you are the only endocrinological castrato I've heard of hitting 60 (?) remaining unsuccumbed to the b/w gender stereotypes of the mainstream view. As someone who shares your views on asexuality, I want to say - well done! Obviously it takes more than ordinary courage, knoweledge and insight to remain androgyne these days. Also thanks for your contributions both here as well as on the Yahoo groups wich I also frequent.

I have some comments on your post:

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm I'm one - a prepubertal eunuchoid, now middle-aged.

Do you feel comfortable elaborating a bit on your condition? Is it Kallmann's, Kleinfelter or anything like that? Did you adress these issues with a doctor, and how come you 'escaped' the pressure of HRT? Most of the similar cases I've heard of the doctors either forced or scared the person into HRT.

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm I sing soprano, including in a church choir, this being my natural singing and speaking voice (encompassing the standard C' - C''' soprano range plus a few notes either side), without any falsetto.

How would you reflect on the strenght of your soprano voice as opposed to an average female? What is your absolute lowest sustainble note?

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm In fact, my voice is exactly the same now as it was when I was 11 or 12

By exactly, do you mean that you sound the same way as you did as a boy?

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm I have never had to shave, although I have some female-type pubic hair which may be accounted for by adrenal androgens, with no perceptible loss of scalp hair. My testicles very small and soft, clearly non-functioning.

That would depend on wether you have a hypo -or hypergonadotropic hypogonadism. If you have HH adrenal glands are unlikely to become overactive, pointing toward remaining function of the testes.

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm I am not unusually tall, being about 1.72 m. tall (about 5ft 8"), although what is unusual about it is that I reached my final adult height at the age of only 12, and have not grown at all since then.

Well, John, it's more than that - it's simply amazing! I mean, you must have been gigantic as a child. At 11 I was 1.55m and was tallest in my class, and there we did not have dwarfs. In fact, you was 28cm taller than the average for given age! If you managed to spurt that much since birth how come you ceased growing altogether? In animal models, hypogonadism extends the growth period by 40-60% or so; in humans up to 200%. Did anything happened to you at that time?

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm As for eyebrows and their ridges, I have, in fact, fairly prominent eyebrows and eyebrow ridges, contrary to what is stated. But I am somewhat obese, with some gynecomastia which is easily concealed, but it does not affect my arms or legs.

That might not be exceptional if you had prominent eyebrows as a child. Or did they grow during adolescense?

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm I read somewhere that "eunuchoid skeletal characteristics" are upper/lower body length ratio of less than 1, and total arm span more than 5 cm more than height. I am within these eunuchoid ranges by small margins.

Yes, but also that the epyphyseal bones are those with longest growth resulting in long legs and shorter spine. The hips tend to be wider as well.

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm As for sexual orientation, I find that I can get along perfectly well without sex of any sort.

However, do you think you can still function sexually?

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm As for HRT, perish the thought! Testosterone is a thoroughly evil substance, causing liver and prostate cancers among others, as well as baldness.

You're right about liver cancer; it seems it has a special interaction on the liver tissue resulting in increased incidences of carcinoma and cysts. Men are twice as likely as women to get liver cancer (excluding alcoholism), and mice models shows castrates do not develop either cysts or cancer in the area.

John W. (imported) wrote: Sun May 29, 2005 5:59 pm So-called "normal" (I call them just plain "average") male secondary sexual characteristics are a terrible disfigurement. Besides, there are other things that can be taken for possible osteoporosis; a diet high in calcium and vitamin D is usually sufficient, along with reasonable exercise and sunlight exposure.

Have you done, or plan to do a BMD scan?

Personally, I never felt comfortable with puberty either. The changes it engendered upon my chemistry were rampant and brutal. Most of the negatives I acquaried by that time decreased after castration, especially in regards to mentality, skin quality and facial features.

As re: osteoporosis - I don't think castrati were at increased risk. Studies done on rats show that only older adult mice exhibited bone loss after castration link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract). Pre-pubertal castrates expereinced a slower, but nonetheless progressive increase in BMD up to old age, exceeding intact individuals in positive bone formation/turnover ratio (due to prolonged growth). It seems that once your bone metabolism isn't dependable on sex hormones it manages perfectly well without (as in pre-pubertal children). Castrati had less BMD yet their bones were more elastic and thus healthier, in my opinion.

For example Tandler and Grosz et al. studied many skopzy, some were up to 90 years old and none were mentioned being disabled. This holds true for the eunuchs in the Chinese and Ottoman studies. Lower bone density doesn't = osteoporosis, for instance children and vegetarians have low BMD but actually have more elastic (children) and healthy (vegetarians) bones. Neither the observed kyphosis in Chinese study is neccesary indicative of osteoporosis as it's also encountered in children and young adults, and can be a result of extended growth with little excersize, sedetary lifestyle, or many other causes (ie unrelated to hypogonadism). Up to date, none of the existing scientific/anecdotal research on castrati/eunuchs of the past revealed yet a single case of a fracture.

http://www.newstarget.com/006358.html

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_repo ... gory=Spine

10 year olds specificly have 50-60% of adult BMD - yet their bones are perfectly healthy and strong without sex hormones. Menopausal women with similar percentage would already develop severe osteoporosis, as their bones are more calcified and hardened (due to early influence of estrogens), and thus easier to brake later in life.

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec05/ch062/ch062a.html

Fractures in children are often treated differently than those in adults because bones in children are smaller, more flexible and less brittle, and most importantly, still growing.

That's also why we never hear of castrati with broken bones!

Oh yes, I am a "peculiar" person in many ways, physically and otherwise. Although I am "pushing 60", strangers simply cannot believe that I could possibly be anything like that, because of my boyish voice and complexion (no facial hair) and lack of facial wrinkles or sagging. Many of the classical Italian castrati were like that, for example Farinelli, of whom many oil paintings were made throughout his like.

I am not sure what caused my exceptional characteristics. I may be Klinefelter's, XXY or XXXY sex-chromosome karyotype, but having a chromosome count done would either be costly to have done or to buy the equipment for (I could do it myself). Of course, my local GP has commented on my condition in his medical case notes, but, because it is certainly NOT a pathological (diseased) condition in any sense, NO so-called "treatment" of any sort was either suggested or requested, quite rightly in his case. When I was in my late teens and early 20s, my ratbag father - a moron, a philistine, a fraudster (even of his own children, as it turned out later), and a pathological liar - tried to bring pressure, including financial, on me to take testosterone or something; - but I was much smarter than him, as well as very stubborn and well-read in scientific and medical (and musical) literature, and I so already well knew what was best for myself, and steadfastly refused any such quack HRT "treatment".

As regards my voice: I am virtually always mistaken for a woman over the telephone, and sometimes in person. When singing, I would say that I am louder than and distinct in timbre from the average woman, except possibly for professional sopranos having large bodies. My absolute lowest sustainable note is about the G below the middle C' (anything below that sounds "oesophagal"), and I can sing some contralto and mezzo-soprano songs as well as soprano, though not as well. I am sure that I sound exactly like I did when I was 12 (of course, I have taken rigorous steps to conserve my voice - not shouting etc.); if anything, my voice is "smoother" and wider in range. I would make a short clip of my speaking voice and of me singing a diatonic scale from C' to C''', but I have a cold just at the moment.

When at high school, I used to sing in a school choir; and when I left school at 18, I was the oldest boy soprano they had. About then, and subsequently, I was accused of being really a girl, and some other less pleasant things. Since then, I rather neglected singing, due to study and work demands, except for being in a church choir; but renewed interest in and acceptance of unusual voices in recent years, especially since the movie "Farinelli" of 1994, plus my having achieved a measure of financial independence, has prompted me to take it up seriously again. For some time in recent years, I had singing lessons at the hands of two local professional female sopranos, now retired.

I have also been helped very much by the general Socialist nature of New Zealand society (I am a red-hot Socialist myself), and the much greater acceptance of gays and transsexuals etc. here than in many other countries. (New Zealand had the world's first transsexual Mayor, who later became and still is the world's first transsexual Member of Parliament; and we legalized gay marriages with effect from this year).

I am not sure what you mean by "

Eunuchist (imported) wrote: Tue May 31, 2005 4:11 am If you have HH adrenal glands are unlikely to become overactive, pointing toward remaining function of the testes.

" I doubt that HCG has any effect on the functioning of the adrenals, which operate quite independently of the gonads. As for my having reached a typical adult height by the age of 12 and then suddenly stopping growing, when I was that young I was a very ravenous eater, although I did not get fat because I ate mostly body-building foods rather than carbohydrates. I was easily the tallest child in my class at school for many years, and it was not until after age 14 that the others in my class "caught up" in height. I cannot figure out what caused me to stop growing then, completely missing out on the usual "adolescent growth spurt". Having caught mumps at the age of 13 just might have something to do with it - perhaps it permanently "shut down" the HGH production in my pituitary, along with LH and HCG secretion, but at least whatever it was stopped me from becoming a giant. I would say that I have slightly narrower shoulders and wider hips, relatively, than an ordinary man, but not by much.

Another point of possible significance is that I have a sister, about 1½ years younger than I, who did not have any breast development or start menstruating until she was 19 or 20. She is about as tall as I am, with similar facial features, - and a quite similar voice, but she showed only slight interest in singing. When in our late teens and early 20s, we were often mistaken for each other over the telephone.

JOhn says...

John W. (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:37 pm Having caught mumps at the age of 13 just might have something to do with it - perhaps it permanently "shut down" the HGH production in my pituitary, along with LH and HCG secretion, but at least whatever it was stopped me from becoming a giant. I would say that I have slightly narrower shoulders and wider hips, relatively, than an ordinary man, but not by much.

I would venture to say that the reason for your Eunuchism is due to a Pituitary gland problem, for whatever reason. However, at age 60, I would not be too concerned with it, if you feel good and are healthy otherwise.

As you all know, the Pituitary gland is the master gland of the body. A problem in it can be serious, but is not always serious.

A-1

I will say this i have lost most of my body hair and i do have brests now i have NO sex drive nor do i want any.I have much more love for people now and i try to make a new friend every day if i can .I know their are other things but thies are the ones i like the most.oooooooooo yes i am much more calmer to but as has been said in here befor everyone is diffrent and as i have enjoyed being a eunuch another person may hate it so take care and read all you can on this.

Hi!

Interesting, if there is any reliable data about eunuchs castrated between ages 14-19? Some people think that castration would preserve young and boyish look for a long time and some think that soon young eunuchs will look like post menopausal women. As I understand these are beliefs, not a knowledge based on scientific research. I have seen a pic of an eunuch who was between age 50-60 and castrated at age 15. I think many of us have seen that pic of russian skopets. He didn't look very young nor boyish. In another hand we do not know how he looked if he was not castrated. Anyway, he was not bald and he did not have any beard.

I know that people are very different. Some might get fat, some won't. Some loose abilty to have erections, some still can. YMWV as Andrew would say.

There is certainly difference how castration affect people in different ages. And there is no reliable scientific data on that how eunuch will look like at age 25, 35, 45 if castrated at age 15 for example. At old age everybody will look old castrated or not.

Few more points of interest. Does anybody knowsWill prepubertal eunuchs develope hot flashes when puberty tries to wake up nonexistent testicles? Or do they start to have osteoporosis right after castration? Children (normally with low T level) do not have any problem with osteoporosis. It seem to be a problem for eunuchs castrated after puberty. It seems like there is something in children that replaces testosterone good sides.

Eunuchist (imported) wrote: Sat May 28, 2005 2:23 am The Castrati (including perhaps those up to 16-20 years of age, depending on the state of their development)

* Smooth, paler than average skin

* Child-like/feminine fat redistribution

* In adult individuals, tendency to long armspan, long legs and hands (at times down to the knees)

* Tallness, usually much later in life due to slow growth; although many castrati were of normal or shorter stature

* Large, sometimes protruding chest

* Possible Genu Valgum (knock knees)

* Narrow shoulders as opposed to hips

* Wide hips, sometimes exceeding that of a female

* Gynecomastia - very much 50/50 happening

* Obesity - later research shows castration may either predispose or prevent obesity due it's effects on insulin metabolism and appetite. Some castrati were known of being extremely slim, almost anorectic in character.

* Even when slim most castrati had plumpy faces, especially cheecks.

* When obese, arms and legs tended to stay slim

* High, feminine voice (tends to get lower with age?)

* Abscent facial and body hairs, although fine mustache and backenbarts sometimes may develop, as well as some pubis due to adrenal activity (mostly DHEA) (as seen on a portrait of Farinelli by Bartolommeo Nazari, and some photos)

* Abscense of prominentia laryngea (Adam's apple)

* No baldness

* High eyebrows

* Infantile nose, generally somewhat 'infantile', 'immature' physical appearance overall.

Note: if a castrato takes HRT past a certain age, already

JeffEunuch (imported) wrote: Sat May 28, 2005 5:32 am acquaried skeleton features wo

uld not change.

Adult eunuchs (those past 20)

* Castration arrests any further masculinization. Done before 30-40,progressive thikening of facial and chest hairs, as well as ear and nasal hairs would not occur.

* Loss of acquaried body and facial hairs, not very noticeable most of the time, degree of loss may vary. Need for shaving may be reduced from 5-6 times a week to 2-4 times a week.

* Baldness stops/ does not occur

* In some younger eunuchs (20-30) the voice might thin out a bit, particularly due to the stimulating effects of androgens on the soft tissue of vocal chords. A loss of a few lowest notes and strenghtening of the falsetto range should be expected. At least has happened to me.

* Lesser to minimum muscle mass

* Smooth skin

* Reduced male facial features

* Child-like/feminine fat redistribution

* Possible shrinkage of male genitals

* Obesity - see above

* Generally more feminine appearance overall

Unlike some castrati, taking HRT would not make a eunuch any more different than what he was before except abscense of testes and, as sista Krister carefully suggested, a

Please feel free to discuss if there is anything else!

I am very much like the description given by "Erikboy" of castrati, including my voice (which has NOT gotten any lower with age - this may be partly due to careful conservation, and it is just as fresh as it was over 40 years ago). The most notable exception, which I do not have, is unusual tallness, which was not a feature of many of the Italian castrati anyway. I am sure that I do not suffer from osteoporosis; on the contrary, I seem to be unusually heavy for my height and build, which points to quite heavy bones.

I have never felt the need for any serious romantic relationship, and besides, my scientific and other "serious" interests probably turn possible suitors off, anyway, although I am aware that the Italian castrati were often attractive to women because of their smooth skin and not being able to cause a pregnancy. I have never had sexual intercourse, either straight or gay. I can easily have erections, although my penis is very small.

The Italian castrati were slightly longer-lived than their average contemporaries, and their causes of death, as far as I can determine, were almost entirely ones other than those associated with old age, in particular: erysipelas, tuberculosis, murder, diabetes, bronchitis, pneumonia (this is what Moreschi died of in 1922) - generally curable in the present day. Not one of them died of anything which could conceivably be caused by eunuchism, and not one of them suffered anything which can be identified with osteoporosis.

erikboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:30 pm I have seen a pic of an eunuch who was between age 50-60 and castrated at age 15. I think many of us have seen that pic of russian skopets. He didn't look very young nor boyish.

Yes, I've seen the photo. I agree there might be individual variation. For instance, we don't know about the lifestyle of this particular individual. Perhaps he was a smoker, alcoholic, or consuming a cholesterol-rich diet? Maybe he was already significantly matured at the time of his castration?

erikboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:30 pm And there is no reliable scientific data on that how eunuch will look like at age 25, 35, 45 if castrated at age 15 for example. At old age everybody will look old castrated or not.

As I have provided some historical quotes in a previous post, there is reliable anecdotal evidence that some, but not all, of the castrati looked younger for their age. In some cases, the accounters have reported up to 15 years difference. In most cases, the younger (or, infantile) appearance was most prominent between ages 20 - 40. Then again, these were the castrati, and the effects may not be equivalent, or even close, in other eunuchs.

erikboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:30 pm Few more points of interest. Does anybody knowsWill prepubertal eunuchs develope hot flashes when puberty tries to wake up nonexistent testicles? Or do they start to have osteoporosis right after castration? Children (normally with low T level) do not have any problem with osteoporosis. It seem to be a problem for eunuchs castrated after puberty. It seems like there is something in children that replaces testosterone good sides.

As mentioned previously, it's unlikely osteoporosis was ever a problem for these eunuchs. No historical/scientific data exists on possible fractures, even in

erikboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:30 pm eunuchs castrated after puberty

(as in three scientific studies done on Chinese, Turkish and Russian eunuchs/castrati, involving up to 100 individuals, aged 20-91, none of whom were 'fractured').

Many castrati were apparently flexible, even at old ages. The recent Chinese castrato Sun Yaoting, died in 1996 aged 93, was able to walk to the very end (as his last photos show him walking). Byzantine general Narcess (most certainly a castrato), died aged 96, was able to launch a succesfull military campaign at ages 72 - 78, performing full time. At 90, while the Lombards were invading Italy, he once more offered his military services to the Emperor, apparently being in a passable physical condition to meet the demands. Jimmy Scott, a prepubertal hypogonadal, and a famous Jazz singer, despite being an alcoholic, skinny and a heavy smoker (factors combined thought boosting osteoporosis threefold) is likewise able, at age 80, to walk (in the recent "If you only knew" DVD) and lead an active social life (he's still performing on stage). He did talk about his recent health in an interview, and no fractures were mentioned. There is also a health report on Domenico Mustafa (de Angelis) in his retirement (1902-1912), died age 82, who suffered from digestive problems, deafness, blindness, swollen legs and phlebitis, yet did not have any fractures. He was disabled at age 75 due to a thrombosis in his leg, being fully flexible to that point.

Most of the medical reports done on those with Kallmann's (Scott's case), show they have less BMD than adults their age. However, neither did they experience the bone-boosting growth spurt (BMD increases 40-60% during that time), and their BMD was still higher than that of 10 yearolds. Basically, as adults, they simply had a younger skeleton age. In higher mammals (horses, bulls), pre-pubertal castration result in similar condition, yet the BMD still increases, although a bit slower, in geldings. There are no higher incidences of fractures in the geldings, suggesting their less dense bones are otherwise healthy.

The current confusion on the matter possibly arise from the following: Most doctors will conclude that if an adult have less age-expected BMD they have malignant osteopenia/osteoporosis. Research done on vegetarians and children prove such reasoning is unreliable, if not downright misleading, when it comes to these individuals. There are other, more specific markers for malignant osteoporosis (bones that fracture due to daily activity, even while coughing) than a mere BMD percentage. A good example here is that 70 yearold menopausals have malignant osteopenia, while 10 yearold girls don't, yet their average BMD score is exactly the same, ie. much less dense (ca. 40%) than that of a young woman! The reason is due to difference in the bone tissue before (soft, less brittle, flexible) and after estrogen exposure (hard, less flexible).

As to the hot flushes, it's an interesting thought. It is a well-known fact that pre-pubertal castration in animals have least side-effects and the highest recovery rate, both on a physical and psychologic level. Thus, at the time of their castration, the boys should not have experienced any withdrawal effects, as their prepubertal testosterone already was in a castrate level (3-33ng/dl). It would be more like having an adeno- or tonsilectomy - just a removal of another endocrinologically unimportant gland. However, research also shows that, somehow, the amount, and especially pulsation time of LH and FSH correlate positively with the occurence of each hot flush. Black cohosh, a non-estrogenic plant extract known to suppress LH secretion, is known to provide a relief of menopausal symptoms, including the hot flushes. Contrary, hot flushes were also observed, although less pronounced, in women with very low LH levels, so it might also have something to do with the body's accustomisation to sex hormones.

In conclusion, there is a possibility that castrati, with a higher, and possibly earlier than average LH surge during adolescene might expereince an occurence of hot flushes, possibly at ages 12 -15. This, however, would be only temporary as even adult eunuchs experience a relief or disapperance of the symptoms within a year after gonadectomy. Possibly, it's not the amount of LH, but it's very increase, that casues the hot flushes. After it shows sings of decline, as it does in most eunuchs after a short while, the hot flushes decline and eventually dissappear accordingly.