I’ve felt obliged to come back to this thread because I believe that I must also respond to Colin’s post.

What Colin describes, in an unnecessarily condescending post, as my weaknesses of being didactic (presumably in the sense of being too inclined to instruct) and pedantic (presumably too wordy or too much parading of knowledge) are elsewhere, as I know from both public and private comments from others, considered strengths.

As I suggested in my response to Slammr, writing styles vary, as do reader tastes, with the latter for me resulting in a loyal following, even of my long ‘didactic’ and ‘pedantic’ sagas.

Please, Colin, don’t be so insular that you believe that everyone should conform to your own ideals and please, Colin, don’t use condescension when referring to me.

PUEROS

First off, I think that some explanation is in order here.

I would have closed this thread when I first read it, had I thought that Slammr was out to insult Pueros' writing. I viewed this as a critique, not a flame.

Writers all differ by style. Pueros finds his own style erotic. Slammr doesn't. So there. For a good example of writing style differences, read "THE TALISMAN" by Stephen King and Peter Straub. It's long and boring and painful, but it's a best seller. Don't ask me how it ever made it past an editor. Must have been by name alone.

I have also received email about my writing, with the foremost complaint being the length of stories and plot depth. While I have no problem following the plots, many other readers can't.

I don't know about Slammr's educational background, but it seems to be a good one. Pueros is obviously highly educated. Personally, I was never able to stay awake in a history class; pity that history is not written as if by Pueros, but then again, we can't tell middle school kids what Bagoas and Alexander REALLY did.

Criticism, in any form, is sometimes hard to take. When one cranks out a story, one becomes attached to it. One is often proud of his works.

Keep in mind that not everyone likes "HARRY POTTER" either. The Author was rejected something like 21 times, I read, in getting it published. And in my opinion, having been a "constant reader," as King calls us, since a young age, it's poorly written. Jesus and I have conversed about this at length.

For a real lesson in criticism and rejection, try submitting something for real publication. Just wait until years worth of effort and hard work, hours and hours of working, is labeled as "junk" as tossed aside.

It sort of makes a comment or two on a amatuer board like this look insignificant.

We like to have comments and email, folks, but keep in mind that sometimes you're going to get criticism as well.

pueros wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:35 am I've just picked up on this thread & yes, Slammr, you have seriously pissed me off, especially as you didn't have the courtesy to let me know that you were going to quote one of my works in depth to make your rather self-centred points. I’m also sure that I could raise similar issues using your own stories and re-phrase some selected paragraphs to better effect. However, I won’t because what, in effect, you are referring to is writing style, which will vary greatly, particularly between people of different backgrounds and nationalities.

I’ll give you some perspectives of my own cultural inheritance as far as writing style is concerned:-

 I’ve been taught to try not to repeat verbs and nouns, including names, within particular paragraphs, which is one reason why I use my wide vocabulary. It is also why I often refer to characters in other terms, including their ages, not to re-emphasise their status or years but actually to avoid repetition. For example, if someone has been referred to, within the scope of 5 paragraphs, 5 times as ‘Gaius’, 5 as ‘the young man from Volsinii’ and 5 as ‘the 22 year-old’, I consider this better than 15 times by his name.

 I do not use my wide vocabulary out of boastfulness but, as described above, in order to avoid repetition. Also, if the words exist and I know them, why not use them? To do otherwise would be dumbing down and an insult to the English language and the intelligence of the reader.

 I dislike using brackets, or in your case dashes, in narrative, preferring commas. I generally utilise brackets only for factual author inserts, e.g. the modern name for a particular place.

 Not being an American, I do not use American words or phrases and, for example, ‘ass’, when referring to the human posterior, is just such a word.

I follow other writing maxims. For example, I do not use the verb ‘to get’ outside quoted modern conversation. I’ve been taught that the word displays a lack of imagination, as there’s always a much better one to use if you give the matter some thought.

I do repeat adjectives such as ‘beautiful’ and ‘naked’ and often provide comprehensive physical descriptions of characters because I believe that they increase eroticism. Slammr may disagree but he must allow me to have my different viewpoint on the matter.

There are good authors at eunuch.org whose literature styles I do not particularly like but I know that my aversion stems more from my own cultural hang-ups than their writing abilities. I would never dream of trying to influence the methods of such a person in order to tempt them towards my own favoured variety.

It is a pity that Slammr did not follow the same policy when starting this thread and I certainly do not intend to change my writing style in any way in response to his culturally narrow criticism.

PUEROS

I would love to have criticism by you, other authors, or by anyone, of any of my stories in public here on the message board. You are welcome to quote any of them since they have been publically posted to this archive. Because of that, I believe it's permissible to use them.

Some people will like explicit descriptions of the characters in the stories, along with all the adjectives and adverbs. I often receive email from readers who wish I had told them that the kids balls were heavy or hung low. I guess I could have, but another reader might have wanted tight balls. If I leave off such descriptions, the reader can form his own.

I read some of your earlier stories. I didn't have the same problem with them as I did with this one. I couldn't get through this episode of Nero. It felt like you had your hand on my cock and were trying to jack me off. I was just trying to say to not try so hard to turn people on. Just tell a good story.

 I

pueros wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:35 am ve been taught to try not to repeat verbs and nouns, including names, within particular paragraphs, which is one reason why I use my wide vocabulary. It is also why I often refer to characters in other terms, including their ages, not to re-emphasise their status or years but actually to avoid repetition. For example, if someone has been referred to, within the scope of 5 paragraphs, 5 times as ‘Gaius’, 5 as ‘the young man from Volsinii’ and 5 as ‘the 22 year-old’, I consider this better than 15 times by his name.

PUEROS

You referred to him as the 15 year old in almost every paragraph that I listed. Yoiu never referred to him by name. Perhaps you could have told us his name and used it occasionally, instead. It just seemed like you were trying to stress his age and his beauty. I got it the first time. I didn't need to be told it, over and over.

Please feel free to publically discuss any of my stories. I welcome your criticism. I don't have to agree with it, just as you don't have to agree with my criticism of Nero. And, you're right. I use dashes too frequently, although I think they're effective in stressing certain words. I'm trying to cut back on them, though, to use them only when I really want to stress something. Overuse destroys their effectiveness. I'm learning to write. I would like to see more such discussion by authors on the boards. I proffer an invitation to anyone to criticize my writing. It's the best way to learn.

Don't forget. I have expressed public approval of some of your stories on the message board.

pueros wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:35 am I follow other writing maxims. For example, I do not use the verb ‘to get’ outside quoted modern conversation. I’ve been taught that the word displays a lack of imagination, as there’s always a much better one to use if you give the matter some thought.

PUEROS

I'm currently using a 3rd person writing style such that it's not an omnipotent 3rd person, but more the first person view, as if each person is seeing the world through his eyes and telling the story from his point of view, then switching to another person who's telling the story. If it's a kid who would probably use 'to get,' then I use it because he's telling the story at that time. If I had you in the story, or some other educated person, telling the story, I wouldn't use it. For example, I might even use the word 'ain't' third person, if I think the person telling the story might use it. Naturally, using this style, I could never say, 'The slave boy’s penial hardness,' because no one I know talks that way. Whether I'll continue to write using this mechanism, I don't know, but I like it for now.

I appreciate criticism. It is the normal way that humans beings interact. Science, art, writing, photography, and everything else that human beings do--including making love--require criticism.

Penial hardnessis a reality that I recall--from a long time ago. Nice expression!

Now that I’ve cooled down a little, I feel obliged to return to this thread one last time to point out two key mistakes that I think Slammr made in his original post.

First, Slammr did not in my opinion submit his criticism in the in the right forum. He submitted his post to the 'Archive Writing Help Center', not 'Story Reviews & Feedback'. He therefore appears to be, rather insultingly, quoting and using excerpts from 'Nero 47' for potential authors as if they were clear examples of bad writing, as opposed to a style with which he personally is uncomfortable.

Slammr obviously prefers a basic, simplistic, minimalist writing formula, using limited vocabulary and leaving a lot to the readers' imagination, which is fine with me. However, his post also appears to suggest that he believes that everyone else can improve by becoming clones and adopting his methods, which is not fine with me, as my chosen style, with which I am happy, is very different.

One of the great strengths of English literature is the richness of the language and its ability to cater for many tastes. Within this context, conformity is a destroyer of artistry whilst divergence encourages creativity. I shudder to think of how the works of many great modern writers, from the likes of Dickens onwards, would have to be amended to suit Slammr's principles.

Second, and perhaps even more sadly, Slammr also failed to notice in his critique that the author, Pueros, was using a particular literary technique, which he's utilised on many occasions, not least in his latest tale, ‘The Merchant of Venice’. This entails teasing the readers slightly by deliberately not initially naming someone.

Slammr’s mistake exemplifies the danger of extracting out of context a few paragraphs from a very long, complicated work, which possesses many threads and inter-connections.

Slammr correctly suggests in his critique that I called a certain character either 'the young slave boy' or 'the 15 year-old' many times rather than by his name. In fact, by the stage of my saga that he quotes, I had deliberately not named the child at all for storyline reasons, electing instead to use the aforementioned substitute descriptions.

I actually delayed naming the character until much later in the chapter for dramatic effect, when I also introduced his baby brother. To some followers of 'Nero', the names 'Endymion' and 'Sporos' might not mean too much at present. However, for those with knowledge of Greek mythology and Roman history, they'll be significant and will provide clues as to how the lives of the two siblings develop in future. The saga is actually full of both sneakily disguised and blatantly overt clues, including in the names, as to what will happen to characters, with one of the intellectual mental exercises for readers, if they care to indulge, being to try to spot and extrapolate them.

Slammr is fully entitled to his views. However, in my opinion, he should have demonstrated greater respect for a fellow regular contributor by not expressing them in the unfortunately insulting manner he chose, which has also proven to involve a major misjudgement of the story context. Nevertheless, given that there are far worse issues in the world to occupy our minds, he's forgiven as far as I'm concerned and the matter now forgotten.

PUEROS

pueros wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:08 am One of the great strengths of English literature is the richness of the language and its ability to cater for many tastes.

That pretty much sums it up right there.

Both parties have made their point.

This thread is done.

Thank you.