Rob Cole (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:57 pm Larry, and subsequently The Agency, which admittedly I found so distasteful that I only skimmed through it, dismay me because they, and a plethora of other EA stories dealing with the enslavement and sexual exploitation of children, appear in a venue whose main appeal is obviously erotic, so I can't help seeing them as intended to have erotic appeal rather than as serious social commentary.

Rob raises a good point: should there be stories about children on this site? Probably most people read the stories to satisfy prurient interests. Should an author attempt to impose social commentary on such an audience? Certainly, when I write such a story, many readers miss my attempt at social commentary altogether seeing only that part which turns them on. I don't really have an answer. I think stories about children can have more of an emotional impact. We were all kids once. I think it's easier for everyone to identify with such stories. Some people do get my social commentary. Does that make it worth writing the stories-possibility exposing them to people who are only excited by them?

While in no way meant to slam anyone, I'm sure someone will take it that way, but here goes.

Stories like "Larry" and subsequently, "The Agency", probably will offend some readers who chose to read them - despite the tags. And as we've discussed at length before, stories of the "minor" genre often entertain the reader, and are popular, because they connect with something inside of most us. Castration issues usually develop in boyhood, not in later adult life, from what our studies have found. Perhaps Freud wasn't too far off, but that's neither here nor there. If you don't like "minor" themes, don't read them. I try not to miss tagging them.

And as Krister mentions, the Archive does serve a purpose in also hosting stories and posts that contain Users' thoughts on not only gender issues, but socio-economic ones as well. And of course, we MUST have our political agendas, which tie in closely.

Take a good look around at our Society, folks.

It's not hard to envision the days of endentured servants or debtors prisons coming back, and that's only a hair away from slavery. Anyone who reads studies and knows anything at all about class separation in this country should readily see what I'm getting at. You've either got it or you don't - and if you don't, chances are that you never will.

We can wave flags and shout about unity all we want. But the sad truth is this - this country is not unified in any way, shape or form. There are racial splits, class splits, and the class split is becomming worse every day. It's even to the point where the economic class split in some areas is just as bad if not worse, than the racial one.

As noted comic stripper Berkely Breathed once said, by way of a character in his strip, "I prefer to blame Congress."

What will probably irritate people the most with stories like these is the fact that it might just hit a nerve and remind us that we don't live in Utopia - and that we never will.

With the exception of the castration/slavery issue, unpleasant things like the ones described in the universe of "Larry" DO exist today. People much like, if not worse than, the Dealer exist. My part time boss is one of them. You can imagine my shock when were having dinner at a local restaraunt the other night and someone walked in with a racially mixed child, a boy, black/white. You can also imagine, I'm sure, that the first thought that crossed MY mind was "Larry".

My boss took one look at the kid, probably five years old, and said, "His parents should be shot for making a halfbreed like him, and they should cut his balls off before he can breed."

After I got the soda that I'd shot out my nose cleaned up, I sat there, stunned. Now, we process and print film, do the studio thing, and print and work with digital images. When printing, we judge every image for quality and work on it - if it needs it. That's IF you're the right person. Modern printing equipment can do a good job on its own, yes. With a $10,000 film scanner running it, it should. However, if the people in the previews ain't white, then it's "auto rip mode" and they get what comes out - when HE prints.

There are institutions out there today that abuse children in the name of doing Society 'some good', run by the same type of people. Perhaps these evil bastards gravitate towards places and jobs like this intentionally. I think they must, after all, it would be the perfect job for a child-hater and absolute horror for someone like me.

As I mentioned, castration and slavery don't exist - or aren't supposed to. However, chemical castration via a cocktail of drugs every day does, as well as forced labor. Many times, I have seen the boys from the local Hellhole here forced to help set up for community events, clean up after them, and NEVER get to attend one of them. What good is it doing them to hang Christmas lights in the park if the overseers never take them to see them after dark?

And then, of course, there is foster care. Did I mention slavery yet? I thought I did. It's nice to have a child in foster care, especially if his parents are dead and you can dip into his SSI income to supplement what the State gives you to keep him. That's IF he's even getting SSI - most of the orphan boys in this hellhole here don't. It's illegal, but it's true. Warehousing, however, is good for the economy. The State doesn't have to pay the institution nearly what they pay the foster parents. Bet you didn't know that, did you?

But then again, who's going to fight for the rights of these "dregs of Humanity"? After all, the child got himself into it, didn't he? It's his job to clean up his act and be a good member of Society, isn't it? As I've often heard these throwaway kids being told, "It's nobody's fault but your own."

'Excuse me?'

Anyone seen the movie "HOLES" by the way? Rent it, or get the book.

There's an old proverb that says, "It takes a whole village to raise a child."

Sadly enough, we live in a world today where the village couldn't give a shit less, especially if said child isn't perfect. And even then, as is the case with "Larry" and with *Matthew*, being perfect or almost so won't even help.

We are a polarized and wasteful Society, folks.

Perhaps stories like "Larry", that tend to smack you in the face with the logical extension of things to come, make you angry.

They should.

Rob Cole (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:57 pm Larry, and subsequently The Agency, which admittedly I found so distasteful that I only skimmed through it, dismay me because they, and a plethora of other EA stories dealing with the enslavement and sexual exploitation of children, appear in a venue whose main appeal is obviously erotic, so I can't help seeing them as intended to have erotic appeal rather than as serious social commentary.

Paolo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:39 am Stories like "Larry" and subsequently, "The Agency", probably will offend some readers who chose to read them - despite the tags. And as we've discussed at length before, stories of the "minor" genre often entertain the reader, and are popular, because they connect with something inside of most us. Castration issues usually develop in boyhood, not in later adult life, from what our studies have found. Perhaps Freud wasn't too far off, but that's neither here nor there. If you don't like "minor" themes, don't read them. I try not to miss tagging them.

[/b]

I'm inclined to agree with both Paolo and Krister. Most of my "kid" stories are not meant to be erotic, although there is often some mention of sex. It happens. Kids engage in sex. It's been a long time since I wrote a kid story which was about sex-yet my stories are being read. Someone seems to like them-whether or not they're getting my point.

I agree with Paolo. Kid stories connect with us at a level-an emotional level-that adult stories never would. If you read just to get turned on, by all means, avoid my stories. That's not why I write them. In a way, The Agency was hyperbole. Although it was an exageration, it also told a "truth." State agencies which deal with children focus first on money-then on the welefare of the children. I had two purposes in writing that story: to point that out; and to say that society's attitude toward Blacks is almost tantamount to genocide. Poor kids, most of which are minorities, have two strikes against them when they are born. By the time they're adults, many have already struck out.

I hope there's a place here for such stories. I think there is. Sure-I get unwanted reactions to some of my stories: "I really liked it when the kid got his nuts cut off. It really made me hot," for example. But, I have no control over how my readers will react to my stories. If an author took every possible reaction into consideration before writing, he would never write a word.

If I write a story about a kid here-some one has to get cut. That's the requirement of the archive. I could rewrite many of my stories, leaving out any mention of castration, but I couldn't post them here.

I'll continue to write "kid" stories, but-if you're reading just to get turned on-please pass them by. There's nothing wrong with erotic fiction. I've writen some stories which were written just to be erotic. I'm bored with doing just that, though. After a few hundred come shots and sets of severed balls, what can more can you say about it? I seldom read such stories anymore.

I agree with Slammr, I think that Paolo is exactly on track here. I have met his boss. To some extent he matches the slave broker. He’s a husband, father, grandfather. But, somehow I have a hard time putting “kindly” and “gentle “ in the same sentence with him. I can easily perceive him making exactly the comment Paolo quotes.

Every one of my fiction contributions to the Archive has been a political statement. Until “Larry” I have consciously used children BECAUSE of the strong emotions they evoke. Mutilating a child is not erotic; it’s horrifying! My hope has been to stimulate thought in the same way that the “ethical dilemmas” that I have posted were intended.

“Larry” was not a conscious composition. It lept unbidden into my unconscious and kept me awake and horrified at my thoughts for three consecutive nights. Writing it down was my exorcism.

I won’t bore the reader here with the dream analysis that I’ve gone through to understand just why I found this dream so horrifying and so hard to set aside.

Not all readers reacted in the same way to it, though. I received a long letter from one of the true eunuchs on the Archive commenting on his reaction to the story. With his permission, I’d like to provide some long quotations from it:

I've spent some time reading, re-reading and mulling over the story version of your nightmare and have some comments (but no conclusions) to make concerning it. I doubt what I have to say will help you resolve a nightmare….

I can identify fully with only one person: Larry. There are elements in the other personae with which I can identify, but only Larry comes close to being me.

There are enough symbols for me to infer that Larry was possibly gay, or at least a "sore thumb" who might have grown up a nerd. I was certainly both of those things.

[a very long section was omitted here]

Am I terrified or repulsed by Larry's experiences or probable eunuch's fate? Since I have in some way shared them, not at all.

I have long dreamt of having been castrated in childhood — that is when I really wanted that to have happened. I didn't want to grow up a male…. Knowing what I do about who I am and what my life has been, if I were allowed to go back in time and purchase a pre-pubertal castration at the price of caste, would I elect to do so?

Depending upon circumstances, yes, I believe I would.

[again, a long section was removed here]

I find nothing at all horrible about his probable life as a eunuch. Given the terror of growing up as either a pretty gay boy or a nerdy Black kid in a macho, drug-addicted, gang-infested environment, I would much prefer Larry's fate as a eunuch slave/servant with a White family. He will enjoy a more secure existance than would have otherwise been his lot, and he will feel at least for a while the shelter of male arms around him….

I didn't cry. I didn't feel horror. I think Larry was lucky….

One person's nightmare may indeed be another person's dream-come-true.

Jesus, et. al.,

I think here that we are missing the point.

Exploitation of children continues in the world today. (Read Michael Creighton's book, TRAVELS)

We will not make it go away by shunning the thought of it.

With that being said, stories about children are not always written for children. We, all of us, carry within us the child that we once were. Sometimes that child must be addressed and that child's feelings must be brought to the surface to be examined in the light of day so that issues may be resolved and permanently laid to rest.

Stories about children abound in classical Western literature. Great stories, Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, Kidnapped, Great Expectations and Oliver Twist are to name but a few.

Much of our repression in Wesern society stems from sexual issues. So far, homosexual repression of issues related to childhood is shunned much more than heterosexual issues are.

All sexual issues repressed in a person must eventually have an outlet. If that outlet is not acceptable to society then there are issues that must be dealt with not only for the sake of that person, but for society as a whole.

The Eunuch Archive is much more socially acceptable than those that are presented in the Video "Sleepers" if they were to happen in real life.

So, I say lighten up. If I write a murder mystery does that make me a murderer?

Now, if somebody here in the E.A. writes a story about the sexual mutilation of children, as disgusting and repugnant as that is, it does not make them a sadistic, mutiliating child molester.

It is better to get feelings out into the open and to examine them rather than let them linger, festering in your mind, until they drive you insane and dominate your subconsciousness with horrible nightmares.

In expressing your feelings here in stories or otherwise, you find kindred souls with similar problems who are also trying to get by, and that is what the E.A. is about.

Besides that, it is much cheaper than psychotherapy.

A-1

I'm surprised and impressed by the thoughtful discussion my comments about Larry set off. Krister is certainly correct that the best way to deal with a story with a stated theme one finds distasteful is not to read it. That's what the 1st Amendment is all about. I don't expect to like everything that appears in the EA. I know that many of the stories I have posted are bound to have horrified some readers, and I will probably do it again. But I question his comment that "the archive's function is not solely, or even largely erotic." I think this could be debated endlessly. I have learned through replies to e-mail comments I have made on stories, and had it reinforced by this discussion, that some authors intend their stories as serious social commentary. But much of the EA content is, on its face, intended to produce erotic stimulation. My stories certainly are. I don't find anything wrong with that. And beyond that, fantasy--especially the horror genre--provides us with a harmless outlet for our darker desires and emotions. As A-1 put it, "

A-1 (imported) wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:23 pm it is much cheaper than psychotherapy.

" But so much of the gay content, at least, of the EA has to do with enslavement and sexual use of children. Anything to do with sex and children is skating on thin ice in Bush's America. I suspect much of the child abuse that has been attributed to Catholic priests was actually relatively harmless touching. And people are being imprisoned and their lives ruined, not for anything they have actually done, but because someone found images of child sex play on their computers. So far, I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted for possessing textual material having to do with child sex, but I don't think it's outside the bounds of possibility.

Rob Cole (imported) wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:50 pm I'm surprised and impressed by the thoughtful discussion my comments about Larry set off. Krister is certainly correct that the best way to deal with a story with a stated theme one finds distasteful is not to read it. That's what the 1st Amendment is all about. I don't expect to like everything that appears in the EA. I know that many of the stories I have posted are bound to have horrified some readers, and I will probably do it again. But I question his comment that "the archive's function is not solely, or even largely erotic." I think this could be debated endlessly. I have learned through replies to e-mail comments I have made on stories, and had it reinforced by this discussion, that some authors intend their stories as serious social commentary. But much of the EA content is, on its face, intended to produce erotic stimulation. My stories certainly are. I don't find anything wrong with that. And beyond that, fantasy--especially the horror genre--provides us with a harmless outlet for our darker desires and emotions. As A-1 put it, "

A-1 (imported) wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:50 pm 0]
it is much cheaper than psychotherapy.

" But so much of the gay content, at least, of the EA has to do with enslavement and sexual use of children. Anything to do with sex and children is skating on thin ice in Bush's America. I suspect much of the child abuse that has been attributed to Catholic priests was actually relatively harmless touching. And people are being imprisoned and their lives ruined, not for anything they have actually done, but because someone found images of child sex play on their computers. So far, I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted for possessing textual material having to do with child sex, but I
[/quote]
don't think it's outside the bounds of possibility.

Rob has raised one of my concerns-Bush's America-the far Right's America. I can certainly conceive their prosecuting anyone who writes something that they consider to be profane. At least laws aren't usually retroactive. Child porn laws only apply to images-although they can apply to virtual images.

Actually, prosecution for publishing supposed pornography used to be as much for written material as for images. Community standards, one of the criteria for what is or isn't obscene in the U.S., have changed enormously in just the last 10 years, thanks in large part to the Internet. But state and local prosecutors still occasionally do go after material posted on the Internet, especially out there in Jesus Land. It's largely a matter of degree of risk. My lawyer tells me that I'm not taking much of a chance with my commercial website, wwwww.robstoyshop.comcom, which sells videos and sex toys. But maybe because it's the only thing which is not acceptable by any community's standards, child pornography prosecutions seem to have actually increased. They have been limited, as far as I know, to graphic iimages. That can change, not from new laws, but from zealous application of existing law.

A-1 has brought up the film based on Lorenzo Carcaterra’s book Sleepers. The film is absolutely frightening. The movie, however, is only a watered down version of the original book, which is truly horrific. In this case we know that, as terrifying as the film is, it is a sanitized version of reality. The book is NONfiction! Very little on the Archive reaches the level of brutality toward children of the reality Carcaterra exposes in this autobiographical account of growing up in Hell’s Kitchen.

A couple of years ago I read What We Don’t Know About Children by Simona Vinci (published originally in Italian in 1997 and in English translation by Alfred A. Knopf in 2000). The book won Italy's prestigeous Elsa Morente Prize for Best First Novel. It has received high praise from many impressive sources – highly positive reviews in The Daily Telegraph, The (London) Times, The Guardian, etc. The story revolves about a group of children (10 to 14 years old) discovering sado-masochistic sex in an abandoned building. The sex among the children is incredibly graphic and bloody, finally resulting in the death of one of the children. I very nearly didn’t finish the book, as it was so painful to read. It was published by one of the most prestigious publishers in America, as a work of fiction.

Little on the Archive even begins to approach the destruction of children and of childhood depicted in these two books.

Sleepers is available in paperback from Amazon for $7.19.

What We Don’t Know About Children is currently out of print in its English translation; the the original Italian is still available.

...

Slammr (imported) wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:01 pm

Rob Cole (imported) wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:50 pm But so much of the gay content, at least, of the EA has to d

o with enslavement and sexual use of children...

I will agree with you regarding this issue.

However, perhaps we should explore why this exists. Could it be because many Gay men considered their childhood tatamount to enslavement?

I don't know.

However, there are no images of children being sexually abused on the E.A. Of course, nobody here would do this or defend the practice of it. The argument that you are presenting is called a Straw Man (http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/f/falla ... traw%20Man) fallacy. This is where you pick an indefensible position (child molsestation and/or child pornography) and attack it attributing it in part to a group whom you want to influence to accept you premise, i.e., "the E.A. should eliminate fictional stories with children as the subject."

Again, many web sites have stories of child molestation of minor females. IF, they do, however, have pictures of minor females, being sexually compromised, that is a crime. It is a crime because some child was photographed in suggestive poses in the nude. Some child was abused.

There is a difference between fiction and reality. A form of insanity exists when you cannot separate the two. No matter, the molestation of children by anybody, priest or whomever, is a crime, it has no statute of limitations and it is punishable by fines and jail time and in addition having you name placed on a list of convicted child molesters. This is true no matter how old the individual is. If they were molested as a child and they can prove it, criminal and civil penalites may be sought.

That is a fact.

Tracy Lords, for example, made many pornographic films when she was between the ages of 15 and 18. Most of them are no longer sold because when she turned 18, she announced that she had made pornographic films for 3 years as a minor. This made the possession or the selling of her films or videos, technically, a crime. (No kidding, Tracy must have a very high I.Q., in addition to having been a precocious child.) (Also falls under the category "...15!!? Hell! How was I to know she was only 15? Hell, she looked 16-1/2 anyway...")

But, this made her a victim, it made selling those films and videos with her having sex a crime, (it still is because she was a minor), and it made some people really, really screwed besides Tracy. Her films can no longer be sold, traded or possessed because technically they are child pornography.

However, she was a victim, willing or unwilling, it makes no difference. Sex with her by an adult was statutory rape, and it was illegal. And there are several male adult film actors who where caught doing it with her.

A trial by jury would probably fail to convict them as perpetrators, however, and Tracy now has a legitimate film career, at least in part from the publicity and the previous XXX rated films that she made.

The point that I am trying to make here is that molestation is a crime that eventually can turn a victim into a perpetrator, especially if the situation is repressed and never dealt with appropriately. Adults who were abused as children must eventually deal with the fact that what happened to them was not normal and that it cannot ever be done to any child just because it happened to them. Symbollically, their sex was taken from them as was their innocence. It was and is a sort of psychic castration.

I would bet that you will find adult victims here at the E.A. and very little or no perpetrators. One reason for that is because they are spotted so easily by many of the folk here and are banned and the other is that there are no children allowed to lurk here. I also believe that it has little attraction to a normal child, or probably even an abnormal child for that matter. Believe me, when I was a child, this place would have scared the hell out of me. However, we here are all grown up now, admittedly, some more than others, but nevertheless, all of of legal age.

A-1