Ahem...

Paolo wrote: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:51 pm

What the bloody blue fuck is that supposed to mean?

(>P>Fires up Winamp and selects "Tomorrow Wendy" by Concrete Blonde.<<)

When it comes right down to it, everything concerning "US" is biological, by definition. Did someone hang up the "Philosophy Board" while I was in the toilet?!:-\

Apparently so. For when someone jumps off a 40th story building to their death, it is seldom reported in the newspaper that "gravity killed them." Apparently you enjoy playing such amusing, "philosophical" games with presumptions of cause and effect. You could also do the opposite: drag out some assinine, bullshit rant about how all death is caused by biolological causes. And congratulations, you'd be completely correct with either the gravity theory or the biology theory of death.

You just would not have made any meaningful contribution to understanding a problem, and looking for reasonable solutions, but rather reveling in some smartass, playground game of "look how clever I am."

Normally, when intelligent people exchange ideas, they try to give the other the benefit of the doubt, they try to understand the context of the conversation, to realize the assumptions that others are making.

Of course depression is caused by brain chemistry! But what set off the changes in that chemistry is the question. That was a question I didn't attempt to answer definitively, I only advised the group that it would be wise not to make assumptions about that, especially in cross-cultural contexts.

So, shithead, when you are done playing you jerk-off games and want to engage in a meaningful discussion from within the context it was presented, try again.

Otherwise, FUCK OFF!

Ummm. Easy fellows ...

Ummm. Easy fellows ...

Oh, I'm all for playing nice.

I'm not quite sure how to interpet

"

Paolo wrote: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:51 pm This is just the kind of narrow-minded, right-wing, ultra-conservative Christian redneck bullshit that is preached mindlessly by those who would believe that God talks to THEM and no one else.

I call this schizophrenia, by the way.

"

as "playing nice."

Paolo apparently hasn't bothered to keep up with what is going on with (leftist) queer theory for the last four decades, that sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc. Are best understood not in biological terms but as social constructions, and that is fine. We can't be knowledgeable on all matters, but instead maybe just asking for a clarification, or how someone could come to such a conclusion, I'm confronted with the above quote, I have to conclude that this is someone who not only is ignorant, but hopes to make up for that ignorance with a smarmy, pseudo-intellectual wordplay and bullying that has become so common in internet exchanges.

Instead of taking an opprotunity to think carefully and exchange thoughts about depression: how factors that might bring on depression might effect people in different cultures in different ways, how depression could have important cultural components that go way beyond the earlier implications that one's free time or one's economic status, Paolo-- seemingly at the behest or encouragement of Talula-- just saw an opprotunity to humiliate another poster with what has turned out to be a bunch of ignorant, arrogant non-sense. I'm just very dissapointed. I'm not saying "I'm right." I'm saying any opprotunity for all of us to think about what might be right is sacrificed for several paragraphs of self-agrandizing bullshit full of colorful, multi-sized fonts and smilies but very little critical thinking.

mike (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:32 pm So, shithead, when you are done playing you jerk-off games and want to engage in a meaningful discussion from within the context it was presented, try again.

Otherwise, FUCK OFF!

MIKE, be more mindful in your language and tone it down a bit. We all like to read one's oppinion but to put up with your abusive language is a bit more than enjoyable. Try a bit more critical thinking...

I think MIKE should change is his tone of voice or leave the E.A. and not by choice...

Best of luck Mike...

Robby



P.S. Bboy, please don't be reminding folks to "Play Nice". We are all adults and E.A. members do not appreciate treatment as adolescents.

Ok ... I guess I will just shut the fuck up then. Talula, Paolo is this the way you feel? I guess you are free to delete my account if you wish.

I guess the new 'group' is now determining what I can and can not say.

Really nice guys. Thanks.

Robby (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:52 pm P.S. Bboy, please don't be reminding folks to "Play Nice". We are all adults and E.A. members do not appreciate treatment as adolescents.

As those who've read my previous posts will be aware, I am in substantial agreement with the first paragraph of Mike's Post #7 above. And it seems likely that a lot of depression is produced by the way individuals are treated by others.

However, despite some enlightening books by Stephen Pinker, Ornstein, and others, we don't really have any clear idea about the way the mind works, or why people think in specific ways. While you can quibble about the definition of "disease", it does seem likely that the human mind experiences states which can't be controlled or counteracted by the intellect. So, instead of arguing about issues like this, it might be best, to search for whatever approaches can alleviate the problems involved.

A fascinating exchange of strongly held ideas. I DO agree with Bboy that sometimes it's important to remind people to "play nice". In the heat of a good controversy we can all sometimes forget.

Keep up the heat, just don't thow any oil on the fires!

I have suffered from depression over the last year and a half. I have noticed that most of my depression has been centered arround events and how others treat me.

I have noticed that my deeper depression usually centers arround relationship problems. Other things like stress from work, boredom, finicial problems and more can add to or cause depression for me.

I can say the way I get treated, or the fact I have to hide my interests from others to be treated fairly can be a heavy burdon that can cause depression. When you are at work or out somewhere with people and they start talking down about Gays, people that get piercings etc, and you do get very uncomfortable and start wondering how differently they would treat you if they only knew your secrets.

This past month while I was in the hospital after my failed castration attempt I would get depressed by how the Doctors and nurses treated me. My biggest problem with them is they wouldn't listen to what I said and just assumed I was a nutcase for wanting castration and having multiple modifications and piercings.

The shrink I had diagnoized me as skitzo with out even really talking to me because I had just attempted to castrate myself. The people that really know me, can tell you that is far from the truth. I hate the assumtions that are made against people that have modifications or want to be a eunuch. Because of the shrink assumption I was put on some anti-psycotic medications that fucked me up big time. I had tons of side effects from the medications that made my hospital stay longer then it should have been.

Depression can be caused by a number of things, in my case it is usually an event beyond my control. As with the case involving hospitalization I was depressed from a break up, problems with friends, stess and then dealing with social reation to my mods and interests.

Well,

Gosh, I thought that I was the only son-of-a-bitchin' asshole that cussed all the time. And maybe I still am, it's just that...well..you could have fooled me on this one.

Let me tell you this. Depression is never cured with ANTI-DEPRESSANTS alone. It seems that the ones so often afflicted with it are those who never act out, cuss, throw things, get abusive, so forth and et cetera.

Mike, you really should not do what I do, you should do what I say. If Mike done that he would get depressed. So, in some specific instances, anger is a defense mechanism. ANd, If you cannot get angry, then you turn to humor. Humor, is a GOOD thing. Better than angry, it is, Obe Wan!

I am a-telling you that getting nasty never gets you anywhere. But you won't depress me with nasty. Because I am going to laugh at you. All of you. Play nasty all that you want. It is amusing to me. Hurt each other because I am a sadist...as much as y'all are masochists. Either way somebody gets their rocks off. Maybe both ways> I'm a-comin'...I'm a-comin...

Sexual socializations as social constructs, well, genetic theory is telling us that chemical changes caused by genetics can be situational. I think that the more sexual experience that you get the more chemical changes that it causes. Endorphins from an orgasm are powerful, and the more that you get of them, the more that you want of them.

The Gay lifestyle is so attractive because of the availability of sex and the reinforcement of it. Let us also face the fact that some people prefer the hard body and tight butt of a man to the soft lush curves and fluffy vagina of a woman. Or vice-versa, but perhaps only because they have had the one and not the other or they have has 'em too long or even not long enough. It is situational and it varies. The ingraining of it comes from chemical changes, perhaps.

It is just the way that it is. On the other hand, the more reinforcement that you get, sexually speaking, the more chemically you become Gay or Str8. At least that is my theory. Gayness is inborn, at least the pre-disposition is. Straightness, however, is the same.

Then, it would stand to reason that you can "make" some straight person Gay or that you can "convert" a Gay person into being straight. I say that you cannot. Perhaps, though, not for the same reason that Paolo would say it, though. It also depends on you reaction to your care-giver as you are a child. There is also that component.

Can you bring yourself to truly "love" a person of your same sex? Can you bring yourself to truly "love" a person of the opposite sex? Do you love such a person at a certain age but not at another? Are you hung up on age? Think about this carefully.

I fear that it is much, much more complicated than we would dream in our wildest dreams that it was, and that we generally only understand it in the terms of our own experience.

The older that I get the easier it is for me to see it. We always stay in the sexual orientation that we are the most comfortable with.

Now, to throw a monkey wrench into all of this, how do transgendered fit into all of this? Is a man with a sex change a lesbian if she only prefers women now, or, still a Str8 man at heart? You see, it gets crazy, doesn't it?

We settle nothing by anger except to generate more anger. We get no where by cussing except getting cussed out right back. Unless, of course, you cuss an depressed person, who just might cry instead of cussing you back.

Well, playing nice is probably a term that is not appropriate for adults, but the thought is what counts. Robbie, criticizing Bboy's use of the term wounds him down in some covered-up layer and casues him much ANGST. OF course, we have no way of knowing how much ANGST the constant use of the term has always caused you. Especially, if you consider the term to be demeaning. Maybe that goes back to your upbringing and so forth.

So, let us not try to hurt each other and instead to help each other.

Woven through this discussion I see two well though through points with the truth for each individual lying somewhere between the two extreme ends of the spectrum.

How's that for fence sitting?

A-1

mike (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:40 pm No, I have no problems or regrets concerning that statement. It seems conscise, it was well thought out and not made flippantly, and it expresses my views accurately.

How sad.

Maybe it would be better if you explained what about it concerns you. Can you try to clear up any misunderstandings you may have, instead of just rabble rousing?

Just for the record, Talula does not rouse the rabble.

That's MY department.

I also take out the trash.

...Play nice...

And besides, HE started it.