"This may be a stupid question..."

Not at all, it would be what I would be wondering if I was reading my posts from the point of view of someone who hadn't written them, if that makes sense .

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Charlieje (imported) wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:00 pm but if your goal is simply to be circumsized, why would you not simply go to a doctor and have it done?

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Because I would not have control over how it is done. I want it tight and I want it to be difficult to masturbate and to have an erection and that sort of thing. It serves a purpose, to chastitise me!

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Charlieje (imported) wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:00 pm There are lots of docs who are more than willing to do it, and it is SO much safer!

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Possibly. In Britian there are no laws concerning plastic surgery, and I would have to a plastic surgeon to have this done. Anyone can set themsleves up as a plastic surgeon and they have been many reports on botched plastic surgeries where the surgeon walked away without even a fine for destroying someone's life! The risks are high, and if anyone is going to mutilate my penis, it is me!

Also, it will be a challange to do it myself!

I hope this answers your questions.

Leon

well.........

you can have any urologist do a circumcision; usually any reason is acceptable, such as "difficulty retracting" or "painful when erect" or etc.

my dad's urologist offered to do a circ just to reduce the recurruing urinary tract infections he had.

doing it yourself is asking for trouble; bleeding, scarring, especially. a good urologist will follow your wishes for the circumcision.

tb

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Falcon (imported) wrote: Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:51 pm you can have any urologist do a circumcision; usually any reason is acceptable, such as "difficulty retracting" or "painful when erect" or etc.

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This is great if you are in America, but I live in Britian and we have the NHS. Because you don't pay for treatment, you pay through taxes, the NHS will not do such surgery without there being a physical need for it, such as bad case of paraphimosis, but even then most doctors will prescribe creams first before making an appointment with a surgeon.

"[D]

Falcon (imported) wrote: Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:51 pm oing it yourself is asking for trouble; bleeding, scarring, especially. a good urologist will follow your wishes for the circumcision.

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I have researched and researched and researched how to do this procedure. I have tried out many methods of stopping bleeding and reducing the risks of infection, and learnt about what the foreskin actually is, what purpose it serves, what type of tissue it is made out of (do you know?) and what risks are involved from removing it. yes, I am taking a risk, yes I could walk away with a 'cripple' penis, huge scar tissue making near impossible to function on any level without intense pain, even after it heals. In my opinion, the fact I know this, the fact that I am willing to take the risk, the fact that I have learnt how the skin breaks, how it heals, means I am making an educated informed decision, that is my right to make!

In a private message, yankee masha mentioned that fact that many tribesmen do circumcisions with little difficulty, but he was also good enough to point out, that doesn't mean I won't have problems with doing it myself. I wrote back and said sure I understand your point, what interests me is though, why do these tribesmen have a tradition where they put themsleves at considerable risk to perform unnecessary surgery(1)? Maybe I should try and make it more clear why I want to perform unnecessary risky surgery on myself where I could deform myself or even die (although the risks of the latter is very, very rare).

WHY?

Since puberty I have never felt comfortable in my body. I have always felt out of place, not quite in my body, morr reacting endlessly towards and against it, masturbation being an obvious example.

I masturbate bcause I feel an urge to do so, not because I enjoy or want to, but just to release myself of the tension and fustration that can build up inside of me. It reminds me of what self-cutters say about seeing the blood rolling down their arm , releasing them from themselves, their depression, and their disgust towards their own bodies.

Circumcision is not the whole solution, but it is a beginning to overcome my need to violently express my sexuality. Ever looked at a woman and felt this need to fuck her, imagined throwing her down on the floor, ripping of her knickers and stuffing your hard cock up her cunt? I have. I would never do it, I know how to step back, to de-attach myself from the experience, but it is not enough.

Circumcision is the ritual I am going to undertake, to perform to release me of my demons, or at least particially. It is safer then castration or penectomy, and it is the beginning o my nullification towards my violent sexual nature. It is in truth not my nature, it is not who I am or who I want to be, and to be able to release the divine principle within; 'I am who I am!' I need to undertake this for teh purpose of self-discovery, to uncover who I really am.

I hope this somehow makes sense, and I hope it is understandable, even if I am not able to express it entirely, this small fragment hopefully will go a long towards showing where I can't just go and see an urologist to perform the procedure. What do they know about me? What do they know about why I want it done?

Leon

(1) Tribemen probably do this sort of surgery, becuase it teaches the young men that life is hard, it is all about pain! Also, it will strengthen the immune system and help them overcome their fear of pain and death, and in so doing to make them good warriors!

PS If anyone has suggestions on how to make a self-circumcision safer please post them. If anyone wants to discuss the reason why further you can private message me.

I have often wondered about the origins of circumcision myself. Why some primitive tribes did it as a rite of manhood and others never included it. My thought once was that the male foreskin corresponds to a girl's hymen and circumcision is sort of the end of virginity and passage into the adult right and obligation to reproduce. This is just my own thoght and not based on anthing else.

There are definite health benefits involved, but how would primitive tribes know about that?

I have had two close freinds who had the same adolescent experience. Tehir foreskins began to close up and one day when hard, they jsut yanked it back and it broke the skin and tehy bled. Then swelled up. Then from that point on the foreskin was loose and easily movable. That made me think that it wa like a girl's haymen that is broken when she is deflowered and tehn her cunt becomes loose and usable by the man.

Any thoughts along htis line?

As i have told leon in pm's I applaud his decision to follow his own dictates. It is not a matter of having a medical procedure but to take himslef further into his own self-awareness and development as a man, along his own line of though. to me no one should question such a decision, not individuals or society or doctors. but advising him on the best way to achieve it successfully is supportive and appropriate.

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yankee masha (imported) wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:59 am My thought once was that the male foreskin corresponds to a girl's hymen and circumcision is sort of the end of virginity and passage into the adult right and obligation to reproduce.

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A very interesting idea!

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yankee masha (imported) wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:59 am As i have told leon in pm's I applaud his decision to follow his own dictates. It is not a matter of having a medical procedure but to take himslef further into his own self-awareness and development as a man

[never been called a man before!]

yankee masha (imported) wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:59 am , along his own line of though. to me no one should question such a decision, not individuals or society or doctors. but advising him on the best way to achieve it successfully is supportive and appropriate.

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Thank you!

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Leon (imported) wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:22 am It is in truth not my nature, it is not who I am or who I want to be, and to be able to release the divine principle within; 'I am who I am!' I need to undertake this for teh purpose of self-discovery, to uncover who I really am.

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Just to clarify, I mean this in a more down to earth way then divine in any religious sense. Anyone here ever had a moment of clarity, of revelation, or of transition? it can feel 'divine'. But this does it mean I think of myself as holy or anything... just to clarify.

All the best,

Leon

For me, I never think in terms of a god whne I think of spiritualality, but of the self, the consciousness, the awareness and intelligence that we all share. I think you and I think alike. For me the sacrifice of attachment to sexuality as exemplified by eunuchism is a choice to focus on the eternal. I also feel that if you are still attached to the matter by being obsessed with eunuchism instead of letting it free you from sexuality (which seems to happen a lot here) then you transcend your sexual prison. But i may be wrong. there is never one specific path that anyone is required to follow. To me freedom is following your own dictates in all matters no matter how many rottn tomatoes are thrown at you by people who want to force their thinking on you.

For me, "Do what you want" is the whole of the law.

Leon, here's another approach for you that might sound odd, but, with a little luck, might help. All Jewish males are, of course, circumcised, in a ritual called a bris, which is usually performed on infants. The religious functionary who does this is called a moyl. If you contacted some British moyls, it is not impossible that you may find one willing to help you. The two obstacles would be that moyls are used to working on infants, and that they view what they do as a religious sacrament confirming male children in the Jewish faith. As a non-Jewish adult, you are outside the mold, but it is not impossible that a liberal moyl might be persuaded to do it.

Yankee Masha, I'm surprised that you say "do what you want" is the law, not "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," which, in various forms, is a core belief of all major religions. What happens if I want to murder, rape, rob, etc.? Will you consent to be my victim? Should others so consent? Even animals don't live that way, but accept instinctive limits on intra-species behavior. In some earlier posts we exchanged, I spoke of the glee with which we took brief vacations from the restraints of civilization, but this was not to say we could do without civilization. Reciprocity is always the catch: we may want to be gods, free to do as we please, but if others have the same right over us, things get uncomfortable very quickly. Besides, most people are built so that mutuality and the exchange of affection, approval, praise, etc., are important motives. Much of what I want to do involves, directly or indirectly, satisfactory relations with others. Work, love, and sex are all inherantly social, if successful. Of course, pleasing others, while necessary, is not sufficient for ethical behavior. I might share some nasty sentiment with others - let's say I joined a "gay bashers" club, or the Nazi Party, etc. An enduring problem in human behavior is that the worst actions can always find social sanction somewhere. Who decides what is acceptable? I think this question returns us to the ancient "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Gay bashers, Nazis, etc., may be pleased to harm others, but would not wish to be harmed themselves. If any of these people troubled with ethical inquiry, the inconsistency would be obvious. Then there is Oscar Wilde's famous witticism: "Don't do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Their tastes might not be the same." Dazzling as Wilde may be, he sidesteps the ethical question by substituting form for content. For example, some may wish to be castrated, others not. All this means is that different things make us happy, not that making one another happy is not an ethical obligation. I suspect that underlying your "do what you want" is a rejection of the judgmental moralism that condemns gays, eunuchs, etc. I share your feeling, but I reach it by the path of "do unto others ..." The scolds, censors, and oppressors are clearly not following the law of reciprocity. They preach "do as I do," or even "do as I say," not, as in the bible, "love your neighbor as yourself."

If you of all people, bobov, misunderstood what I was saying then I did not handle it very well, sorry.

The subject I was addressing was not social responsibility. I was talking about personal expression and my "Do what you want" statement was meant to be applied to pursuing one's own intentions and fulfillment on a personal level without having society dictate what you must or should do. I was not talking about law codes for social interaction and I was not discrediting the need for orderly and considerate conduct. I was talking about one's personal "law." From a nonreligious view (which is the only route I will take in any discussion) the so-called Golden Rule of treating other people as you would wish to be treated is the ideal. It is the basis of orderly conduct within any culture. But it also is based on allowing individuals to pursue happiness in their own way.

So the two work together for the good of society and enabling individuals to find fulfillment in their private lives without hurting anyone else.

I was certainly not proposing people go out and kill and steal and do mischief. The ideal for someone being able to pursue his own destiny is to live in the freedom provided by an orderly society.

This is Father's Day so I am limited in my time to go on further (lucky you) so you are now freed from the boredom any further talk from me would engender LOL.

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bobov (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:47 pm As a non-Jewish adult, you are outside the mold, but it is not impossible that a liberal moyl might be persuaded to do it.

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Errr... ok.

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yankee masha (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2003 6:06 am For me, I never think in terms of a god whne I think of spiritualality, but of the self, the consciousness, the awareness and intelligence that we all share.

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To me spirituality is always about the individual. Who am I? is the central question. The religious answers with 'I am a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu/Thelemite/Wiccan/etc', the mystic with 'I am one with God' and the magician with, 'I am God.' It is always about the individual, humans are selfish creatures by nature. You help another, it is egotism, you are kind, you want something in return. It is our nature. You pray to God, you expect Him to deliver you from the torments of hell, or in my case, you sin against God and hope He will send you to be tortured for eternity in hell... hehe.

The way out of this cyclic behaviour of self-importance, egotism and self-rightiousness - and yes I am self-rightious enough to propose an answer - is to step back and examine who you are as a human being. Once you know, and once you able to realise who you are through your actions, you no longer at the whim of your wants and needs. You can make a consciuous decision to be selfish or altruistic. Why make a decision to be consciously selfish?

Your nature says you are selfish, so you will be, but if your consciously take control over it, you can curve it to mean you are not selfishly selfish, if that makes sense. You are selfish in so far, as you can't give your money to everyone who needs it, so you have to be selfish enough tot urn some down, because how you can eat otherwise? (For replies, please start a different thread, or private message me.)

Now I seem to remember we where talking about SELF-circumcision; the dangers involved, ways to reduce the dangers and methods of doing it.

All the best,

Leon

PS I apologise if this sounds all together TOO bitchy. Its not meant to be. Honest.

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yankee masha (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2003 6:06 am For me the sacrifice of attachment to sexuality as exemplified by eunuchism is a choice to focus on the eternal.

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Yes, I think there is a spiritual side to castration. In my thinking, voluntary castartion has a strong spiritual aspec

bobov (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:47 pm t to it, in so far has it is about realising who you are.

"As a non-Jewish adult, you are outside the mold, but it is not

impossible that a liberal moyl might be persuaded to do it."

Please read my last post, the one where I discussed why I wanted to perform this procedure on myself.

Ethics:-

'Do what thou wilt shall be thw hole of the law!'

If it does not break the law of liberty, what the hell!

You only live once!

All the best,

Leon