Hmmmmmmmmm..................

After watching events in Iraq, I've been contemplating turning my stories 'Apocalypses' & 'Retributions' into a trilogy with a final, deliberately controversial, complete tale, provisionally entitled 'Hypocrisies'.

I have to confess that some of the views expressed in this thread have stimulated me into broadening the perspective of the prospective storyline.

PUEROS

I meant to say Thank you, Sac_mec, for your comment on my avatar. At first I considered doing a gardenia, because I liked yours so much, but then I thought it is better to be original. My avatar is part of a larger computer drawing I did years ago. I could not use the whole thing as it would be against the rules of the Message Boards, so i just took a part of it. When I miniaturized it the whole body came out red, but I liked it as the guy is being cut. It is an illustration for a very long story I began writing back then too.

I am not so certain that Studlover was expressing his personal opinion. Was he (hopefully) not perhaps playing Devil’s Advocate by sending in the above bigoted posting, tongue in cheek in order to stimulate lively discussion. The above bigotry seems to go completely against the grain of a previous post sent in by him (see the humouristic “Suko knows her history, where an imigrant from a minority group riles and gets the upper hand over the majority grouping”)? If so, he has partly succeeded in stimulating such discussion, and in the process, at least for me, made the post and responses thereto interesting.

As Paola correctly points out, this board was intended for controversial discourse. Calls for censureship and the banning of postings and persons expressing views contrary to one’s own beliefs, in itself is an act of intolerance. If one does not like what one is reading, skip reading the post, and go on to the one that does appeal. We do it with newspaper topics anyway. There are many posts which do not interest me, so I skip them and go to those, like this one, which does interest me.

Yankee Masha quite is correct in his response on language and culture. For example, England is not as English as many would believe. Every county or shire in the UK has its peculiar culture, tradition, and accent and expression of the English language. London is completely cosmopolitan. Move out of London and you feel as if you are in another world. This is one of the UK’s greatest strenghts, diversity, yet unity and loyalty to the country (not necessarily to the government). The same applies to the USA. It has become great because of the contribution of all the diversity of nationalities, cultures, sub cultures, religious diversity, racial diversity; have contributed to making the USA the only surviving superpower in the world.

There is the “Thesis, opposed by the “Anti-thesis”, resulting in “Synthesis” Discussion and discourse between opposing viewpoints in most instances enrich the resultant “Synthesis”.

Here in South Africa, there was a time when English was forced down the throats of the Cape Dutch subjects resulting in the “Great Trek” northwards; then in turn, the Afrikaner (my cultural grouping) tried the same stunt. (The Thesis). This resulted in riots and uprising from the other, mainly black grouping (The Anti-thesis). Now we have equal recognition for 11 divergent languages (The Synthesis). We too now recognise that our enrichment lies in the divergent differences that make up the fabric of our society. Each cultural group enjoys its full freedom within the greater framework of the South African context. I am South African first and foremost, and an Afrikaner as a secondary factor. The Zulus have their king, language and culture, the same applies to the Xhosa, and so forth, but we are all first and foremost South Africans.

Mac succintly takes each bigoted argument with a counter argument, which is great. Again, from my viewpoint, some of his argument I would disagree with, especially in that marriage and family values are the sole prerogative of the heterosexual person. Here I do believe that we in South Africa are ahead of the USA. Same sex couples can now adopt children. Marriage between same sex couples are currently in the process of debate in the constitutional court, and it is a given that it will become acceptable in law.

I liked the way Pueros successfully and surreptuously slips in his anti Republican comments, without mentioning them and also in spite of Paola’s ban on slurs on the President whilst the Iraqi war is not yet quite over.

I still uphold the view that a reculcitrant child needs disciplining (even a caning if neccessary) in order to help with his upbringing; am anti abortion; that the death penalty should be re-instated in South Africa; and that a gun free society will not eliminate murders drastically. Those are my personal views, but I also know that I could be wrong. The debate goes on between the Thesis and the Anti-thesis of my viewpoints, but eventually a Synthesis will result.

There's no doubt that Studlover has given us a tempting barbecue of balls to munch on for good discussion. Quite a guy, that Studlover. I vote him for best thread starter of the month!

I always forget one thing about online discussions, mainly we can't set forth a whole disclaimer and explanation in every response. But let me say here that my comments, however they seemed, were not to trash Studlover, but to express my boredom with that kind of thing which now seems to be the online vogue. Setting down a whole list of non-related things in a shouting manner, like "I'm right because I'm being forceful," then throwing in some stuff that some (usually) conservative gang wants to get rid of. Usually it's health care for Americans. As if it is something evil, something some moocher wants for free, when actually it is a realistic and viable thing every government should provide. Or making an oblique slur against gay people, since there is no other minority group they can get away with mistreating any more. As if just being hetero makes someone automatically better. They set up a lot of logical and acceptable stuff then throw in those "agenda" items that the Christian Conservative Redneck etc etc folks want for whatever reason they feel it keeps them from living.

The latest one is about not wanting any language but English used on governemnt stuff. What is the problem with using several languages when we have huge populations of people who can better understand instructions in their First Language? How does this threaten the foundations of our Government? It is just prejudice.

Another is saying we are a Christian country and our Founding Fathers were Chrisians. All a fat lie. They were mostly agnostics. And they made it clear that no religion was to be adopted as the state religion. So should we just shut up till the war is over so the Christians can use the window to advance their agenda against our freedoms? How much support do you think this web site would get from the Christians if they took over?

And what is wrong with getting something back like health care for your tax money? We handed out 40 billion bucks to Afghanistan and we are setting up a national health care system in Iraq, which we are funding. Why can't American taxpayers get the same benefits?

So when you post these sentiments don't be shocked when you get some lively discussion.

As an amusing item, I heard one guy say that the new dollar bills, which are designed to counteract counterfeiters, is a liberal plot and further they would "get" the liberals for it. Of course the dollar bill gets changed almost every eyar and has been for over 100 years continually.

But don't take it as an attack on the poster either. If certain statements are presented in any form here then either allow full discussion or no discussion. It is called free speech and the pursuit of happiness. Is everyhbody happy?

<G>

....here we go...not this again....

Charlieje, ignore them. They have good intentions. They just do not know that if you tolerate too much that you can become a victim of you own tolerance. Somebody is out there who will take advantage of you because they know that they can.

I have found that generally there is a person ou there who will fuck you up at the first opportunity. They always ruin it for the majority of good people.

If you think that George Bush is wrong try imagining what Mohammad Attat et al could have doen with 3 or 4 thermo-nuclear devices in a U-Haul truck like Timothy McVey rented.

Mac...yes, I was in the Girl Scouts. They kicked me out for eating a Brownie...

In short, I am so sick and tired of Liberal guilt trips and insults regarding my conservative tendancies that I don't need a gun to kill. I prefer to stone the persecutors with bricks.

Apparently children in prisons for not expressing political allegiance and women being raped and beheaded are O.K. as long as those people are not Americans.

Sure, there are problems with Iraq. I believe that it will end up an Islamic state regardless what is done toward Democracy and/or a Republic.

Still, to get respect we may end up cleaning Syria's plow.

Most of the important things in life I learned as a kid. If you keep messing with people sooner of later you are going to pay. It ALWAYS catches up with you.

AMERICA...if you do not love her or her ways then why do you hang around? Utopia is out there somewhere. When you find it drop us a line...I may want to come and live with you.

NOW, excuse me whist I go out and find a community band that will play the Star Spangled Banner all Summer and play my little heart out...

A-1

If you don't like America why do YOU stay here? America means freedom of speech and thought and all those things that have been around so long you conservatives are sick of them. You want a band to play loud to shout down anything you don't want to hear because thought requires energy and you just want to pop a beer, flip the burgers on the grill and get your paycheck and snarl at anyone who doesn't think like you do. If you want to live in a tyranny go find one. There are plenty around, but they don't want you either.

I'll never stop saying what I feel just because you get cranky about it. And I don't see where just because I say what I think is supporting that monster Saddam. I'm glad we ousted him and hope they find him and torture him. I just think we should preserve what we have here as well. Get it? Or can't you think in dual terms?

AMERICA...if you do not love her OR HER WAYS then why do you hang around?

It is obvious to me (as a non American) that BOTH Yankie Masha and A1 love and are loyal to America. The differences between them seems to be in their own individual interpretation as to what constitutes the American way of life. The official version of course is embodied in the American Constitution. (I cannot include the laws of the land, as they vary from state to state that make up the Federation).

Various organizations in the USA have their own interpretations, contrary to the American constitution, as to what constitutes the American way of life and would like see their own version stamped on evcry one else there. There is the version of the Klu Klux Clan, the version of the die hard WASP’s (White Anglo Saxon Protestants who believe that the Puritan founding fathers founded America to the exclusion of everyone else), the various black conciousness movements, just to mention a few.

Nor can it be said that any political party, albeit the Democrats or the Republicans have exclusive ideals as to how the country should be run. In fact the Democrat today can be the Republican tomorrow and vice versa

Conveniently forgotten by these groupings, is that historically America was INVADED and OCCUPIED by various colonial powers, the Dutch in New Amsterdam (New York), the French in Louisiana, the Spanish in Texas, New Mexico and California, and the British in most of the other states. Eventually the British decendants got the upperhand over the other colonial powers, and as a result of the spoils of war or incorporation, inherited, Dutch, French and Spanish populations already living there before their time. The Dutch and French and the later European immigrants became Anglisised, most Spanish speaking persons did not. (In fact as a result of the faster growing Hispanic population in the USA, there is speculation that in 100 years from now, Spanish could become the USA official language, if not the second official language on par with English)

New blood influx during the colonial and post colonial period was the importation of the negro slaves, and at the turn of the 20th century, the waves of imigrants from Italy, Russia, Ireland, Germany and other European countries.

In modern times there is the Oriental influx, and the flood of illegal Hispanic entry into the USA.

All are obiously in America because they love America. All have made their positive contributions to the state. So why try and exclude any?

As a non American you might say to me “what the hell has it got to do with you?” My view is that because America is the only remaining super power in the world today, whatever happens there affects the rest of the world, including my country. (Even the twin tower debacle did not only affect America).

I don't want to excluse anyone or their free expression. I just don't need anyone telling me I have to leve if I don't think the way he does.

I have found that there is a greater understanding of what America is like by citizens from other coutnries than there is here. there also seems to be a deeper understanding and study of Americans than there is here. Possibly because mos of us jsut take things for granted and don't want ot be bothered with knowing ourselves, just in bullying other people into submission.

It is not liberal or conservative. Kennedy did the same thing as Bush does only as a liberal. He stole the election from Nixon, he was a spoiled rich kid whose Dad put him in power. He had brothers who were also in power positions. Bush is just a mirror of Kennedy. I am more liberal than conservative but I believe the only survival is by adhering to freedom and not using the country as a pork barrel and forcing religion and repression on a free people.

A-!, I know you are American. I am here and an active member and I am not American.

This thread has been very interesting with many stimulating points made and I agree with all that Groot Voel and Yankee masha have said.

The greatest single thing we have to defend and protect on this planet is diversity and mutual respect for it.

There are political parties, newspapers and media owners who,

on a daily basis frighten the "majority" population with scare stories about how their country and their values are being undermined by immigrants or gays or whatever.

Despite the immense power of these media men, generally speaking, toleration and diversity still have the upper hand,

but it is being constantly undermined .

At times we all want to identify with a majority for safety.

But the majority can always be broken down.

Some of us may be left handed, a bird/train spotter, 2 facile examples of the fact that individuality is important.

Studlover, your opening thread is unusual for you in lots of ways - the EA Boards have been somewhat quiet recently and you

ensured a few of us responded.

Finally, about America - I am proud that you guys fought for and won a republic and that you are all citizens; in most respects

things may look the same here but scratch the surface and you'll see we are "subjects" not citizens. A UK TV commentator made the point about the present situation in the US, saying that freedom at home, in the US, was threatening to be the major casualty.

Let's all ensure that open and diverse discussion keeps our minds open and our hearts generous.

I am not picking on you all...

I just get sick and tired of people like actor Tim Robbins getting on television on C-SPAN and ranting about how his kid is being persecuted because of his father's views. He should have considered the consequences of his actions before he put himself and his family in the Limelight. He knew how pissed off the average American is about the circumstances of the last several years.

Maybe Robbins and his family are not being treated fairly. Do you think that the Islamic Martyrs expect NOT to die when they strap explosives to their bodies and go out to blow things up? Even they have more sense then do people like Tim Robbins.

...And the Dixie Chicks. Oh my God! Why in the world if you made a living selling records to the American public would you say something that was going to piss off 70% of them? Then, all 3 of them pose naked on the front of Entertainment magazine.

Personally, if they were all lying on the other side of the street naked and on fire I would not walk across the street to piss on them to put them out...AND...you ALL know how I feel about naked women...

I am not talking about respect now, I am describing common sense. Street smarts. Get it?

Robbins is not crying for the kids in Iraq who died at the hands of Saddam. He doesn't care how many KURDS died at the hands of Saddam's regime. He is not prepared to fight because a couple thousand people in NewYork were killed in a terrorist action. If you think that there is no connection between the situation in Iraq and 9-11 you need to think it through again.

Things have not changed since we were in school guys. If you allow some idiot to pick on you then everybody will pick on you. What would you have expected to happen to you if you walked up and hit the biggest, baddest guy in your school squarely in the nose? What would have happened if you had slapped the Principal or Football coach?

Nobody forced Robbins to take the stand that he took. I am tolerant to a degree. But people that I knew died in Viet Nam and I don't appreciate all of the references made to degrade the memories of them, either. If I were Tim and Susan's kid I would be wondering what I did to my parents to cause them to have so little regard for me...

What was done in Iraq had to be done sooner or later because the U.S. was not R-E-S-P-E-C-T-E-D. The longer that this went on the worse it would have gotten.

You can look upon America as being feared, being arrogant, or being...(so forth and so on, fill in the blank_____), it does not really matter what people think. We are what we are in America. We will not change any more than the Islamic people would covert to Buddism.

We have freedom here in America to speak but it IS a two-way street. With freedom comes responsibility. Despite what you all may or may not think about our President Bush, he IS a fighter. SO is Al Gore. So is John McCain...

I have heard enough stereo-typing about old men being cowards and starting wars. I heard it from my mother, God rest her soul, but I respected her enough to remain silent. Dad had post stress syndrome from WWII for years. He was in the Navy in the Pacific Theater. They did not know what it was back then...it affected both of them but they worked their way through it. Life is hard and freedom don't come cheap even though I believe to be a God-given right and the destiny of mankind.

I have heard enough about draft dodgers. I do not fault them or feel abused about their avoidance of the military. People do what they feel that they have to do. I am still pissed off because when President Clinton had to attack Iraq some said that he did it to divert attention from his affair with Monica Llewenski. He avoided VietNam, too, but he still fought when he was forced to fight. He is not a coward!

What is wrong? Haven't some of these people ever been hit in the face and had to fight back? What was 9-11? A Hollywood production? I think not...

Senator John McCain's views and President Bush's views are in agreement, yet the radicals among the Liberals attack George Bush's integrity and motives. Why don't they start on Senator McCain? Is it because he was in Viet Nam and spent some time in the Hanoi Hilton? Does that make him a killer of children? Not hardly.

Look, I know that many of you are from places other than America. The majority of people in America, about 70% at last count, support the action in Iraq.

Sure, this situation is serious. North Korea is in negotiations with China over their fear of America and their possession of Nuclear Weapons. Factions from Iran are trying to start an Islamic revolution in Iraq. Syria has not taken steps to secure its own borders with Iraq. Syria has offices of terrorist organizations in downtown Damascus that are open for business like they were humanitarian organizations. Do you call that FREEDOM?

All is NOT well.

This is not going to go away just because we want it to or if we just ignore it. We have to fight and then we have negotiate and then we have to work and work hard to provide world stability.

I feel comfortable posting here, too. I always have. I hope that you all know that I am not a raving lunatic. The fact is that if the world does not take control of this situation then this situation is going to take control of the world.

What I EXPECT is for Americans to respect other Americans. We have our military in a war. We must support our military even if we do not support the politics that sent it to fight. Surely, you international folk can see the reason in that stand...

If I offended anyone by suggesting that they don't love America enough to want to stay here then I am sorry that their feelings have validated my paranoia. It is how I perceive things to be. If people don't want to be told this sort of thing then they need to respect the viewpoint of 70% of America and tone down the rheutoric a bit...

Look, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Protest is fine, but when the protests are intended to disrupt, then people deserve to be arrested. Where is the tolerance of these people who preach tolerance to the rest of us Americans?

Look, if you all want to live under fundamentalist doctrine of some sort then that is fine. Me, I'd just as soon die trying not to...and maybe even dying so that you won't have to...or maybe, just maybe even dying so that Tim Robbins and his contemporaries can tell everyone what a coward and a baby-killing loser that I am without getting tortured to death for it...

...And by the way, sorry to ruin your stereotype, but I do not drink beer and I listen to old Jazz and not Country music.

...and Yankee Masha, you can think any way that you please, you do not need my permission. But you already knew that, I suppose...hey! would it make you feel any better if I joined a German band?

I cannot do heavy metal or country because I don't play percussion or guitar...

A-1