When I started school the words "under God" were not in the Pledge of Allegiance we all learned.

When it was later added, it was jarring, and did not fit in our young minds. It broke the cadence and rythum. It was clearly something extra that was added.

For a long time I would recite the Pledge with the others in my classes, first thing in the morning, and most of us would stumble over that extra phrase that cluttered what we had learned.

The Pledge never did sound right to me again.

You and I may or may not like the decision made by the justices, but they went by the laws of this country AS WRITTEN rather than by what they may have felt was right or wrong. This is their job, their ONLY job.

I believe they were correct.

The next step is to have the Supreme Court judges who appointed our President decide the issue.

That is why the lower justices decided so quickly - to kick the problem up to the top level without undue delay.

Don't like the law, change it, but until it's changed, follow it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~imagepool/tomsig03.gif

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minority interests in a pluralistic society. While it is true that the original structure of our government reflects a deeply Judaic-Christain background, it is also as much the product of the Radical Englightenment. This is important.

Protecting minority religious views which include the beliefs of those who are not theists protects the religious interest of the majority of us who are theists. For example, I'm not bothered that we have religious slogans in the pledge to the United States or on our currency, but I am deeply concerned that these religious references do offend other citizens.

While I am a devout Christian, I am almost happy that my god daughter does not take part in organized religous programs, though I do wish she knew more about religious thought. Still I prefer that to her being part of some no-knowing Christian group. My nephews who do take part in them are not typical evangelicals. They believe in evolution and other aspects of modern thought, but are deeply Christian. There is great diversity in religious experience.

Like Tomas, I learned the pledge to the United States before the "under God" phrase was added. Even as a child, I wondered about the wisdom of adding it, even though I do believe that we are under the domintion of God.

About our proposed military invasion of Iraq, I confess that i'm deeply torn on the issue. Each side makes deeply impressive arguments. For me, it's a close call.

By the way, I did major in philosophy at university. I took my offical major in religion out of respect for and to honor a professor, but most of my work was actually in analytical philosophy. It was a useful area of study that has enriched my personal and professional life.

Forcing an official religious point-of-view on people in a pluralistic society shows an immense lack of historical wisdom. The religious wars after the Reformation (maybe so-called reformation) created the need for the radical enlightment.

I also remember when the phrase, "Under God", was added and think that it should stay. One of the founding principles of our country was the freedom to worship God as we choose, not the absense of God.

Just to respond to charlieje...

Charlieje (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:37 pm The point is, Zoraster, this country was founded by Christians, for Christians, applying Christian concepts. Not Church, CHRISTIAN! (and there is a BIG difference in too many cases)

That is a common misconception. Many of the founding fathers were not explicity Christian. Jefferson was a deist but very specifically not Christian, as were a number of others. Some were, yah, but not all.

For Christians? Hardly. It happens that since most of those coming over were from Europe they tended to be Christian, but it was founded for anybody who wanted to come and live in a land without kings (not that we didn't invent our own later).

Our country was founded on values and ideas that were and still are not Christian - capitalism, for instance, is an inherently anti-Christian doctrine, as it encourages rational self-interest (jeez, I'm starting to sound like Ayn Rand here...) over the interests of the group at large.

Charlieje (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:37 pm HOO boy I can imagine the flames I'm gonna get now.

Heh. Nah, just corrections.

Charlieje (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:37 pm As for the schools giving you a detention for not repeating it, well, having never attended public school in the USA I have to say that is one of the things that has made this country great: reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, having the flag in the classroom, etc, etc. We didn't get all that in Canada, and I think the difference in attitude of the people of the two countries is obvious. Canadians in general are not nearly as patriotic as Americans.

I never attended public school either. This was a private (non-religious) school, just for the record. Either way, the point is, had I recited the Pledge the way we were supposed to I would have been lying. I am not willing to lie. How is it either Christian or patriotic to punish someone for that?

Charlieje (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:37 pm Please do not think I am trying to belittle any non-Christian or be derogatory in any way, I am just trying to point out that the founders of this country had Christian intent.

Bill O'Reilly tried to also, and had to resort to faking evidence to do it. It is a very common misconception but it's still incorrect. Jefferson generally is the easist guy to find writings on that mention religion's influence on the founding of the gubment. I'll see if I can find any particularly good references online or something, since this seems to be of interest to a lot of people. That or maybe Andrew or Jesus could look around; they seem pretty good at this stuff...?

Charlieje (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:37 pm Oh, and if you think your rights are being violated by acknowledging the country in which you live was founded "under God," I suggest you go to Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or China, and demand your rights as a non-whatever religion is there.

Again, an illogical argument, equivalent to the guy with no arms bitching out the guy with one arm because he's depressed he only has one - both situations suck. Just because somebody else has it worse than you do doesn't mean that your situation isn't bad.

In particular reference to me, as I said, I'm not really all that annoyed by it, but I do have principles, and so do oppose it.

Charlieje (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:37 pm This one will go to the Supreme Court, where I hope there are those who have some sanity. We are so determined to assure everyone's freedom we are taking away freedoms at an alarming rate.

If our government were really interested in freedom it wouldn't have passed the Patriot Act.

Really impressive!

Well, as always.

Only thing I could add is, I really feel young here.

No well, let's say: This is not explicitly a youngster forum...

and neither am I. But.

I think I remember too good, it wasn't fun.

So let me add for the record:

I* would have been

Zoroaster (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:18 am getting in trouble for refusing to

say it, such were always my kind of troubles at that time.

I use to lighten up a bit since, but just so that nowadays I would just give a shit if it get's me in trouble and NOT say it.

I don't say no public prayer and nothing the like.

Last t

A-1 (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:22 pm ime I did I was 6 and I'm still ashamed I did.

A-1: "...as a child in school it always made me feel be

tter when I realized that everybody was on the same side."

Probably right and to be on the same side also means there has to be somebody else, who's on the wrong side then!

It's so easy for a child to end up on the "other" side, espeacially if everybody "want's" somebody there...

Well, children are cruel and will be.

I don't know why helping them?

Patriotism?

The need to stick together to fight down evil in this world?

OMG!

I say: Keep the kids out of this.

I still don't give a damn if I speak german or japanese of french.

If they decided to take a kettle as "our" national symbol I couldn'd care less.

I don't have a national symbol and I'm not german "by blood" even if this country's laws still speak this way.

I don't follow laws "until they get changed" and I carry the consequences.

AND.

I still don't get it why patriotism should be needed to fight intolerism.

I just don't get it.

But as I sayed, I lightened up a bit since.

gus

First, Gus, let me say that I feel like I know you.

I feel like you are a friend. I do not want that to change.

But even so, I am compelled to say what I must say.

Clairification...

A-1: "...

A-1 (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:22 pm as a

haltlos (imported) wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:53 am child in school it always made me feel better when I realized that everybody was on the same side.

"

Probably right and to be on the same side also means there has

to be somebody else, who's on the wrong side then!

Not necessarily.

Personally, It made me feel like I belonged somewhere.

Many times during scary times children need reinforcement to feel like they are part of a bigger whole.

But most of all, it made me not afraid to go to sleep at night, because I knew that they might get some of us, but that they would never get all of us, and that whoever they got, that the rest of us would see to it that it never happened again...to any one.

We said the Pledge at every opportunity...at school events, public meetings, and so forth. The children grow up to be adults. They need singleness of purpose also. In America, we believed that we are the government and the government is us.

At one time we all felt like we were in the best country in the world...

Then came the JFK assassination. RFK, MLK, VietNam. Watergate. Not to mention the righteous right and President Clinton ejaculating all over poor little Monica's blue dress. (And then one Bimbo tells her not to wash it so she doesn't. Talk about NASTY!!!! eeeeeew!!)

"Policical Correctness"???!!!

OH! Let us not offend anyone.

Well, Excuuuussseee ME!

Clearly, we send mixed messages from America and it confuses people who do not understand America. They become confused about our unity, our resolve and our sense of purpose.

A lot of countries said that they knew what America was going through post 9-11-2001. Well, maybe yes, and maybe no. In truth, it is of no consequence.

It is our duty to the world to let the world see us all standing Pledging our Allegiance to our flag and by extention ourselves and our way of life...

That way maybe no one else will make a foolish mistake like the one that binLauden made. That way maybe SODDUMB will see that he has fucked around long enough and that he better start thinking seriously about crawling into a hole somewhere and never letting the world hear of him again.

If that little idiot in North Korea thinks that he is intimidating somebody with his goose-stepping hordes of morons and his pissy-assed nuclear reactors, he is suffering from Cranio-rectal inversion. We know where the reactors are and we can take them out any time that we feel the need, with impunity. It is just that there is no need to do that or to get upset.

We know that North Korea sold a lot of fissle material to Iraq. Now if they can just manage to shut the hell up and sin no more then maybe the world can forget what they did.

Most of all, we feel comfortable with our way of life for the most part. Oh sure, we see some who will not participate in the Pledge, but we always have a certain group within our society who fell compelled to do that...that is their perogative.

But damn it to HELL they have no right dictating their terms to the rest of America.

If it makes them nervous to see men, women and children reciting the Pledge of Allegience to the flag then maybe they should go sit down somewhere and just shut the FUCK up. But they better NEVER try to stop us from saying "The Pledge".

You see, that is the difference between America and a dictatorship. It is the difference between Americans and most other people in the world. The real power is in the majority. Dictatorship governments do not have that. Niether do they allow dissidence and people to refuse to say a pledge of allegience.

THAT, is the difference....We do allow dissidence.

So, if you feel bad in America because you are not Patriotic, then that is YOUR problem, and not everybody else's.

If you are an American and you are offended by the Pledge of Allegiance then so be it.

WE will still say it. If you do not like it...how do I say this gently? Ahhhh! I cannot...so...FUCK YOU!!!!!

(There, now I feel better.)

If you do not live in America, you do not understand us or you are upset with us, then just start studying us. Maybe some day you will be able to discern what makes us tick. But I caution you, it is a much simpler scenerio that you might imagine...

A-1's PREDICTION....

Just watch how long that fucked-up ruling lasts once the Supreme Court gets a-hold of it.

Those idiot judges in that California Court better get their asses down to Tijuana, Mexico and buy some more drugs. It looks like it could be a long, hot summer!

SODDOMIZED INSANE, YOU ARE GOING DOWN! (and it ain't a-gonna be for no sex act, either!)

A-1

I don't have a problem with the pledge as a whole, A-1, and I don't think anybody here does. Personally, I don't care for those two little words that, for me, change it from a statement of truth to a lie.

I was in elementary school when “under God” was added. I refused to say the pledge with those words then, and I refuse to say it now. I consider myself very patriotic, but the pledge, as now written, clearly excludes me and the about 15 to 20% of Americans who will admit to pollsters that they do not believe in the existence of any god. (I suspect the actual number is much higher, though we are STILL the second most religious developed country, after Ireland.)

This will be my last post on this thread.

A very wise saying I have heard most of my life is, "Don't get into discussions about Religion or Politics." This thread is both, so I will heed that good advice. However, before I go, I feel duty bound to say the following. This is not my attempt to try to persuade anyone, nor to push my point of view. It is my initial reaction to some of the posts I have seen here, including those from people I consider my friends.

For those who believe that there is NO God, who believe that our entire existence, this beautiful world we are trying so hard to destroy, is all coincidence, that it all happend by chance, I feel very, very sorry for you. I will pray for you all, as I have done most of my life.

There have been many times in my life when I would not have made it without my faith, my God.

I may very well destroy my welcome here in the Archive, at least by some of the members, but we have to do what we have to do; and what I have to do now is to stand up and declare myself to be a Christian, a very devoted Christian, who has denied or ignored my God far too long.

OK, I have said enough. I refuse to preach, we all have a right to our opinion and our faith (or lack of it) and I appreciate and honor that right.

If anyone wishes to discuss this with me, you have my email address. I will NOT discuss it publicly.

Hey, all Atheism aside.

Some people believe in God, and some do not.

You see, If I were an Atheist, I would still believe in God.

My God would probably be Pussy, or perhaps a '32 Ford fiberglass roadster with a blown 392 Hemi backed up by a GM 6-Speed transmission.

Tuck and roll upholsery and a bright yellow undercoat-clearcoat finish and bright white fading to red fading to orange flames...with a nice amount of chrome trim and polished aluminum goodies.

That, I bet Jesus and everyone could worship. Waddya say?

Ya see, everybody believes in something, which is in principle their God.

I do not think that it is a big thing, and I you do not want to say the Pledge and it does not bother you, then it does not bother me either.

Just as long as we can be unified and agree in principle.

A-1