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Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:15 pm
by fhunter
WheelyCurious wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:20 pm Assuming any truth to the allegations as described in the article (I tend to have doubts about most media...) it would seem like being a cutter isn't all that profitable as an income stream either....

WheelyCurious

Depends on how much was found. Also - consider costs of running the server.

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:30 pm
by magusuk89 (imported)
WheelyCurious wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:20 pm Assuming any truth to the allegations as described in the article (I tend to have doubts about most media...) it would seem like being a cutter isn't all that profitable as an income stream either....

That works out to GBP 33K / year for the site... Not sure about UK standards, but in the US that is in the "minum wage" level income if one person got it all. No info about how the take was split, but assuming it was an even split, each of the nine got about GBP 3.7K / year, which hardly seems like enough to get very excited about, let alone justify the risks of the likely jail sentences they are facing....

I also notice that while the article mostly talked about the surgeries, but there was a mention also of making and distributing "an indecent image of a child" - what are the odds that the court is more bothered by the kiddy porn than the surgery, even if the paper was more interested in talking about the more unusual surgeries? No idea....

I do agree w/ Magus that it seems like a bad thing for getting good progress towards SOC 8, and hope it comes to a speedy resolution that gets the news people off the case....

WheelyCurious

On a point of information, £33k (before tax) would be a managerial salary in the UK. London might be a global centre for money laundering, but for ordinary people it is a poor country by 'global north' standards, and the dynamics are different wrt taxation and state welfare. This is one reason why the medical situation is so desperate. If the NHS won't do something, very few people have any savings at all, or medical insurance, to use as a war chest to seek help.

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:14 pm
by Losethem (imported)
WheelyCurious wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:20 pm I also notice that while the article mostly talked about the surgeries, but there was a mention also of making and distributing "an indecent image of a child" - what are the odds that the court is more bothered by the kiddy porn than the surgery, even if the paper was more interested in talking about the more unusual surgeries? No idea....

WheelyCurious

"...BUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!" is the rally cry of anyone who wants to either ban something or marginalize a minority population. That's why that is relevant. When they insert, "We're just protecting the children" into the equation, even when they're not, it makes it damn near impossible to present a case contrary to the person who brought the protection of children up.

It's the same horseshit that's been used against gay people for the better part of the last century. If a little boy gets molested by a gay man, then the response is all gay people are horrible and society must legislate homosexuality out of existence, persecute anyone who isn't straight, and otherwise marginalize gay people.

So, what do these people do when it's a little girl getting molested by a straight man? It's the same crime, only the genders are different. Answer: *crickets* At least in comparison.

From what I could tell on the site which shall not be named, there was never any image of a child distributed there that I know of, much less advocacy for performing actual surgery on children.

That said, obviously child abuse in any form is unacceptable. But for some reason society is more willing to sweep it under the rug when it's straight white men doing it, but only finding it so horrible something must be done about it when it can be used as a wedge to marginalize people the person doing the marginalizing simply doesn't like, intruding on those people's lives in ways they'd feel persecuted and/or having their rights taken away should they be treated the same way.

It never ends. The specific situations change, but it's always, "but won't you just think of the children..." with these people. If there was a campaign to ban paper because of paper cuts, it would start out with, "but poor little children are getting hurt by the vicious, sharp, sheets of paper..."

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:38 am
by bbtop1978 (imported)
The problem about all this, is that there is a people asking for their services. People wanting to be castrated and/or penectomized in a ritual way, not under full body anasthetics. For me, those videos was the start of my fantasy, then real strong desire. The problem there is that if the start of the procedure and the ritual is very hot, there is no plan if something goes wrong. They don't have any skilled professionnal to finish the job. They just cross their fingers wishing everything goes well. In an ideal world, those guys should be allowed to do their business, but without drugs and with professionnals ready to finish the job after the ritual. I would be their first customer. But it must be safe.

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:43 am
by magusuk89 (imported)
bbtop1978 (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:38 am The problem about all this, is that there is a people asking for their services. People wanting to be castrated and/or penectomized in a ritual way, not under full body anaesthetics. For me, those videos was the start of my fantasy, then real strong desire. The problem there is that if the start of the procedure and the ritual is very hot, there is no plan if something goes wrong. They don't have any skilled professional to finish the job. They just cross their fingers wishing everything goes well. In an ideal world, those guys should be allowed to do their business, but without drugs and with professionals ready to finish the job after the ritual. I would be their first customer. But it must be safe.

I had a bit of a rant about this on Twitter. ... There is this uncomfortable reality that castration rituals feed into our need for non-standard bodies we inhabit/are going to inhabit/wish to inhabit to be validated by others. And because of majority prejudice, the question 'am I valued?' requires a huge amount of weight of evidence to conjure the feel good factor. Someone else choosing one's body, or forcing the inevitable on one for their reasons rather than yours puts huge weight behind the idea that the whole thing is not going to be some huge exile from affection and value.

My balls are the source of massive pain, to the extent I've lost my job from mandated sick leave stretching too long. My hair has gone white from the stress of it, and my dentist worries about the wear on my otherwise perfect teeth from grinding them. I am desperately fighting to get treatment (I can't even access cord blocks, even though that wouldn't have an effect on the inflammation making my Crohn's impossible to get into remission despite £100k per year drugs). I also respect how for others, living in a body that does not correspond to their 'wiring' can be a torment; and also how profound loss of agency affects well-being for people for whom this is simply preference.

Sexually I find fantasies that involve others imposing treatment on me make me feel good inside because they signal and end to worry and an end to fighting that I can actually believe in. Indeed, I don't interact sexually with anybody who would not want me castrated if I did not have the issues I do. In plain English: I only feel sexually fulfilled with people whose psychology others might call predatory. Why? Because I am sick of fighting, and people's pity or mere tolerance is corrosive to my positive face needs. I want to be desired. I don't want to be defined for others as a reduced version of what they want.

Naming the traumas and needs underlying fetishes is dangerous, as it can lessen the ability of fantasies and rituals to perform the mental health effects we experience as pleasure, grounding, reduction in anxiety and so on. I was in a mixed mind about writing this.

But it is important to say in the context of the trial ongoing, that people will not be satisfied till they have wrung all the details and private inner lives out of people. Ordinary people are only likely to understand this sexual behaviour if it is really spelled out to them why they would do the same if it were they who had a deep need for this taboo change in their bodies.

The example I used before was how no-one would question a therapist watching the Paralympics with a leg amputation patient, and possibly talking about how good the prosthetics are during an awake/epidural surgery. Genitalia is sex-related, and sex (the having of it, the wanting of it, the not having of it, the not wanting of it) is taboo to the extent there are no socially sanctioned answers to any sexual question anyway.

All these things are incredibly vulnerable, and I don't feel a courtroom is a good place for it to be explored.

I hope that one day we have clinics that are run by our community's qualified doctors, where our distrust of professionals vibing with out deeper needs is no longer a problem. This does not necessarily have to involve doctors doing sex work for it to meet our needs! I see a lot of the sex ritual aspect as a reaction against the abuse and upsetting level of negative judgement we get from fertility-focused andrologists.

I have some experience of what 'good' looks like in this area. A number of years ago I got a circumcision privately. It was borderline sub clinical, but the operation has increased my quality of life and the sex I enjoy. This was in a private hospital, and the surgeon and I had a man-to-man about it, he was understanding, and we had a good rapport. I felt no need to conjure huge great affirmation rituals around it, because the experience did not erode my sense of agency, dignity or privacy in the first place.

So none of this is strange, but, God help us, it will look strange to people who have never considered these things.

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:03 pm
by WheelyCurious
I'm finding I have somewhat mixed feelings about this - Without approving or supporting any of the actions on the site that shall not be named, I can kind of get what BBtop is saying about some wanting kinky ritual to go with their surgery... While I am in total agreement with the advice that one shouldn't get castrated because of a fantasy, it IS a "once in a lifetime experience". So if one has a fantasy bent along with a desire for more mundane reasons, I could understand not wanting to miss out on the opportunity to make it a more thrilling one....

So even if we were wave a magic :dong: tomorrow and make SOC 8 the law of the land w/ plenty of low cost, accessible clinics to do safe procedures under typical medical operating room methods, I could imagine some that would still want the sorts of services offered by the nameless site because they would meet the needs for the kinky aspect....

So perhaps there would be a niche for clinics that offer the more 'exciting' option with sufficient medical backup for safety.... It probably still wouldn't satisfy everyone, but there has to be some sort of limit.... So what would it look like?

1. While a lot of fantasies seem to involve less than 100% voluntary operations (at least judging by the stories) obviously there would need to be a definite need to insure that the reality was complete and detailed consent - so presumably the employees would need good acting skills, and be able to work with the client to create a detailed 'script' ahead of time... (I've never been involved, but I've heard this isn't unusual in the BDSM world?) I'd also expect that there would be some sort of an option for the client to 'abort' the scene and bring in the medical team w/ quick acting anesthetics to finish the job in a more 'normal' way....

2. There would have to be limits on what sorts of things could be done in order to be 'medically sound' and not leave the medical backup team with a mess that couldn't reasonably be cleaned up

3. Presumably the costs would be much higher (and not covered by insurance) for this sort of 'custom' care...

Probably lots of other elements, but the above seems like the essentials, and the rest would probably go better in the story department....

WheelyCurious (and no I wouldn't be a customer....)

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:13 am
by magusuk89 (imported)
Hmmm... my contention is that I suspect there'd be less demand for that if there were nothing to perform ritualised defiance against.

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:13 pm
by WheelyCurious
magusuk89 (imported) wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:13 am Hmmm... my contention is that I suspect there'd be less demand for that if there were nothing to perform ritualised defiance against.

You might be right -
magusuk89 (imported) wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:13 am I suspect there'd be less demand,
but that it wouldn't go away...

A very minor example, but think about how many posters here that have gotten medically managed surgeries and said that they regretted not being allowed to take the removed bit's home in a jar... (I'd fit in that group) Seems like a bit of 'kink' element to an otherwise desired outcome... How many patients say the same thing about their appendix / gall bladder / other bits?

WheelyCurious

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:39 pm
by magusuk89 (imported)
You might be right - [quote="magusuk89 (imported)" tim
WheelyCurious wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:13 pm e=1679940780]
I suspect there'd be less demand,
but that it wouldn't go away...

A very minor example, but think about how many posters here that have gotten medically managed surgeries and said that they regretted not being allowed to take the removed bit's home in a jar... (I'd fit in that group) Seems like a bit of 'kink' element to an otherwise desired outcome... How many patients say the same thing about t
[/quote]
heir appendix / gall bladder / other bits?

WheelyCurious

I think partly this is because there is a historically socially sanctioned concept of these things as trophies of war, and to do with the identity work of people, nations, etc. I would also prefer another person having my balls to be a sexual partner rather than a doctor I have not had any agency in choosing. Partly this is also about the suspicion that corrupt doctors might attempt IVF with the tissue against one's consent (aware my rank hatred of most andrologists is showing...)

A question to ask oneself is, if you saw the medical incineration happen, would that alleviate the feeling? Also, on the subject of genitalia as a powerful socio-sexual 'materia magia', if there were some unique document or object that came as a proof or monument of detesticulation/penectomy, would possession of that have the same resonance?

As with everything I just keep asking the question 'what needs/unmet needs does this desire/behaviour aim to satisfy?', and see how inevitable a particular choice of path really is.

Re: Cutters Beware

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:44 pm
by londoner80 (imported)
Please remember that whatever you may read as this trial continues that there are real people at the end of all this. What you read won’t be the whole truth, it’ll be sensationalised. Whatever your thoughts about the activities of this group there’s people who’ve been living with the stress of an possible trial for over a year.