erikboy (imported) wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:03 pm In any normal country there are companies that service hospitals and clinics. They have labs to test blood, urine etc. Like www.synlab.de. They will happily test your blood just by your request. You just go to their office and say what you need. Or make an order of tests what you need over internet.

I'm aware of at least some of those outfits, although I believe most want a doctor to order the tests (In many ways the US is NOT a 'free country') However even if they will do the test, you have to pay out of pocket... If the doctor orders it, insurance pays.

I'm waiting for my next appointment with the TG center doc, who will be ordering the tests, and that is scheduled for early December. I'm on the 'cancellation list' which might get me moved up if something opens up sooner. I'm curious about the test, and looking forward to the results, but not in such a rush that I can't wait.

I was mentioning the idea of what I'm hoping to see in the results because I was wondering if some of the negative effects you mentioned from being on Androcur are because it dropped your T level to a point that is to low... Unfortunately I don't know of any chemical method (other than the injecting destructive stuff approach) that stops the testicular production, with out also stopping the adrenals.

I'm hoping that being on E after stopping things w/ the Lupron shots will keep the testicles shut down while still allowing a little bit of T...

WheelyCurious

WheelyCurious

erikboy (imported) wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:29 am So yea, this time I did not start public diary here about my progression. Still I did keep a diary about changes due to very low T. And it was my 4th time to be chemcastrated for a summer time.

this time it started in 15th of May and last Androcur was taken on 7th September. 4 months practically. By now all the T has fully returned. So I had a nice summer again, without annoying hornyness and sexual thoughts. My T dropped to 21ng/dL. From my usual 600-700 range.

Why am I not surgically castrated yet? It is hard to say. One of the reasons is bad side effects from very low T. For me it is very bad sleep. I just couldn't fall asleep and I woke up at night many times. But if I managed to have a good rest, I did not feel tiredness or being exhausted. The next thing I hate is feeling old and slow. I noticed how my walk changed from energetic to slow. To look as energetic, I had to push myself considerably. Also by the evening I became exhausted, so that I just lied on my bed at times. Any harder work made me sweat a lot and I could easily be out of breath. Also very frequent hot flashes and sometimes cold shivers became a nuisance. My thermoregulation seemed to be out of order.

It was especially bad during the first month and a half. Then everything got slightly better.

By the end of chemcastration I was waiting when all this will end, as I wanted to finish all the Androcur I had and keep the promise. Although lack of sexdrive was very pleasant and desireable. I really enjoyed that part of being castrated as always, I wanted to take a rest from negative effects for a while. And now that all the T effects are back I already wait for the spring to start another 4 month T-less period.

Interesting thing is, that even with very low T I still had few and mild sexual toughts, fortunately they did not occur every day. The longest period without masturbation was 3 weeks, right before the end of chemcastration period. And I did not force abstination. That was nice.

I can tell that all these 4 chemcastrations have been different. First of them was 10y ago. Interestingly I did not have such sleep problems back then. May be it was because I was younger. What I remember clearly of this period that differs from recent experience, is sudden, abrupt loss of sexual thoughts. I also felt being inadequate without T, compared to other males. And things that I could easily lift before became impossibly heavy which I did not notice this time. Also being out of breath was not a case.

I would gladly reply to any related questions

I'm glad that these types of experiments are well behind me. 4 months without testosterone in my opinion will not show you what it's like long term. It may take a year or two before anything negative begins to show up. I gained close to 40 pounds from the spring of 2019 until now. I now weigh 260 pounds and that has resulted in high blood sugar. And I felt weak and without stamina that gradually got worse.

My advice to you is to either seek a permanent form of castration and then do injectable T so you can control your hormone level and your sex drive, or give this all up. The first option was right for me and I have no regrets. I found out that my body can't handle being without testosterone and my mind can't handle having testicles so we compromised nicely in the middle. I plan on getting an orchiectomy in a few months and enjoying sex at a comfortable level. And when I want a break I can just stop the shots and go the natural eunuch route. There's also low doses of estrogen which is another good option. Until you get rid of your balls it's just Androcur or your sex drive, and once they are gone your options really open wide. The only downside is that you will be dependent on big pharma. With that being said, some guys do well long term without testosterone.

Nathan74 (imported) wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:43 pm I'm glad that these types of experiments are well behind me. 4 months without testosterone in my opinion will not show you what it's like long term. It may take a year or two before anything negative begins to show up. I gained close to 40 pounds from the spring of 2019 until now. I now weigh 260 pounds and that has resulted in high blood sugar. And I felt weak and without stamina that gradually got worse.

My advice to you is to either seek a permanent form of castration and then do injectable T so you can control your hormone level and your sex drive, or give this all up. The first option was right for me and I have no regrets. I found out that my body can't handle being without testosterone and my mind can't handle having testicles so we compromised nicely in the middle. I plan on getting an orchiectomy in a few months and enjoying sex at a comfortable level. And when I want a break I can just stop the shots and go the natural eunuch route. There's also low doses of estrogen which is another good option. Until you get rid of your balls it's just Androcur or your sex drive, and once they are gone your options really open wide. The only downside is that you will be dependent on big pharma. With that being said, some guys do well long term without testosterone.

The way I read Erikboy's intent was to take 4-month summer trips of no T, and return to regular T for the rest of the time. He did not sound to me wanting to be a full time eunuch.

I, a bit like you, went permanently castrated, and then supplement with T to avoid the bad side effects of low T. However, Erikboy's route sounds pretty good. He does not have the long-term dependency on big pharma, like you and me. And similar to you, after the permanent chemical castration, I now have to deal with osteopenia. (I highly recommend fellow eunuch to get a bone density scan.)

Whatever works for Erikboy is good for him. Had I thought through all the possible ramifications in the beginning, I might have followed his route too.

sftineun (imported) wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:00 pm I have been permanently chemically castrated, and I had been taking Tamoxifen for a long time. However, when I was finally able to convince a doctor based on my low T levels to do a bone density scan, I was diagnosed with osteopenia - a precursor to osteoporosis. In the end, I was put on testosterone replacement and Fosamax.

So far I don't see that I need to worry much. In addition to Tamoxifen I have had lenghty high T periods when my bones won't loose density. And may be able even to recover, if there has been any bone loss.

WheelyCurious wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:53 pm I was wondering if some of the negative effects you mentioned from being on Androcur are because it dropped your T level to a point that is to low... Unfortunately I don't know of any chemical method (other than the injecting destructive stuff approach) that stops the testicular production, with out also stopping the adrenals.

Preteenage boys have very low T levels. What I have seen, levels are below 10ng/dL. From medical literature I understand that castration levels are up to 50ng/dL. Mine have been floated between 17-40 during chemcastration. In medical literature I have seen a statement that surgical castration results in lower T levels than chemical castration resulting in levels below 20ng/dL while chemical castration T levels can vary in much greater range. 0-50ng/dL. Androcur has additional castration effect by blocking Androgen receptors from T.

Nathan74 (imported) wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:43 pm My advice to you is to either seek a permanent form of castration and then do injectable T so you can control your hormone level and your sex drive, or give this all up. The first option was right for me and I have no regrets. I found out that my body can't handle being without testosterone and my mind can't handle having testicles so we compromised nicely in the middle. I plan on getting an orchiectomy in a few months and enjoying sex at a comfortable level. And when I want a break I can just stop the shots and go the natural eunuch route. There's also low doses of estrogen which is another good option. Until you get rid of your balls it's just Androcur or your sex drive, and once they are gone your options really open wide. The only downside is that you will be dependent on big pharma. With that being said, some guys do well long term without testosterone.

Being surgically castrated has been my dream from early ages. But now I feel like I am too old for that. I am fully masculinized by T long time ago. However, having no balls in some future is still my in my plans. I want to experience that.

I agree that 4 months is still too little to experience all the changes. Especially negative ones. Most of the effects set in during the first 1,5 months. Habit to masturbate takes longer to fade. Not that I had a huge desire to that, but mostly because of habit and curiosity. By third month I did it just once a week and the rate was still dropping slowly. Last time I was on Androcur, I noticed dopamine depletion by the fourth month. I did not get excited as much as I used to, when I saw cool and exciting things or news. Still, a lot depends wether I could sleep enough or not. If I could, my mornings with some help of coffee were as energetic and happy as they had always been.

This time by the 4th month I felt much more emotional. Emotional swings were quite large. That was kind of annoying.

Bone density loss is an unknown thing to me. So I can not talk about that.

Regarding weight gain, people seem to react differently to castration. I for example lost 6 kilos or even more. That happened last time as well. And when I stop Androcur, I start to gain weight quickly. But it might be partly because during my Androcur period I am physically much more active. And partly because Androcur is a diuretic. But not all lost kilos can not be explained by dehydration.

I do not want to damage my endocrine system permanently yet, that is the main reason why I do not want to go beyond 4 months. So far it has worked for me and castrated summers are fun and joy despite all the negative aspects.

Hi, newbie here.

I've done three 3-month bouts of chemical castration with Androcur as part of transgender transition trials (a path I decided not to go down due to age, family drama, etc.). I find the dosages you guys are talking about quite high. However my experiments were done with Estradiol as well. The first period was with patches. Blood work revealed that there was no Estradiol absorption but the Androcur brought my t-levels into the castrate range. Here's the kicker, it was a very low dose, 12.5 mg/day to be exact. On my second and third trials I used oral Estradiol, 2 mg tablets twice a day taken sublingual (with a couple of weeks at 1 mg twice a day).

A few baseline facts: I had partial erectile dysfunction before starting. I would get partial morning erections, and could get nearly a full erection with lots of handwork, but it was hard to maintain and I could not maintain it through intercourse (sexually I'm into women, and am married). I have not been sexually active with my wife for nearly 4 years. My T-levels were in the middle of the normal range. I'm in my mid-60s, and have type II diabetes, and currently weight 178 lbs and am 6 ft tall so normal BMI; my weight varied between 165 and 178 throughout the trials and never went above 180.

After starting:

By 3 weeks, morning wood ceased; I could get semi-hard through stimulation and reach orgasm, but it was increasingly difficult and the urge declined quickly as well so a every-other-day habit became every 1-2 weeks or so.

By 1 month, no morning wood at all, and ejaculation other than 1 or two clear drops stopped. Very few sexual thoughts, and the urge to masturbate was down to 2-3 weeks. This remained the picture for the rest of the trial. I was still attracted to women and would have loved to kiss and cuddle, but I had no interest in sex or penetration though I would have welcomed mutual touching if I had a partner, but no desire to take it all the way to orgasm at least for me (would have been happy to please my partner though, orally and manually).

At the end of the trial, 3 weeks after stopping Androcur morning wood came back as did the desire to masturbate. Oddly, the ED had disappeared completely, for a month or so but then returned. Normal ejaculation returned gradually too starting after 3 weeks. Blood work revealed that T levels came back to the low end of the normal range.

The second trial, some 6 months later, worked pretty much the same as far as sex went, but using oral Estradiol. After 1 month, my breasts started to become very sensitive and on the rare times I felt like masturbating, I had to stimulate my breasts to get even minimally aroused, and stay aroused. Touching my genitals had no effect. Nipples and aureoles became darker and more pigmented and while my penis essentially was always flaccid, my nipples were permanently erect. Touching them was very pleasurable and that slightly increased my libido but to nowhere near pre-castrate levels. However bumping my breasts really hurt and they had a continual dull ache so that I had to wear a bra.

I weaned off the Estradiol first, then stopped the Androcur a week later. Things returned to male normal, again after 3 weeks with full erections for a short while, then the "usual" ED with partial morning wood, etc. I did not have T levels checked after this trial.

The third trial yielded the same result as the second trial except the ending of the trial: full erections did not return, I returned to my partial ED state, so things worked as they were before the first trial. However T-levels rebounded to slightly below the normal range.

Reading through the medical literature, it seems that the latest trend with Androcur is to start with a higher dose but once the effect kicks in, taper off to the lowest dose possible. My theory: the higher dose shuts the testes down, the lower dose prevents them from restarting. The risks and side effects are less with a lower dose.

Throughout the trials, I did have issue with hot flashes/night sweats and they were bothersome. I loved the loss of sex drive and erections. I'm an avid cyclist and while I did find myself having to use the next easiest gear on hills (I ride in a VERY hilly area), I was still able to do long hilly rides. I did not gain weight, in fact I lost some weight on the third trial. I ascribe that to slightly lower muscle mass.

A few takeaways and bits of advice:

1) Androcur is not a benign drug, aim for the lowest dose possible; YMMV but 12.5 mg/day kept me in the castrate range even on the first trial when I had no Estradiol absorption. YMMV but aim for as low as possible.

2) If you do repeat trials, be prepared for testosterone levels not returning to their previous levels. It seems every rebound resulted in a loss of T-levels so that now they are below normal. I suspect if you do this often enough, you may end up permanently castrated, or at least T-deficient.

3) Your body needs sex hormones so if you can manage some feminizing, use Estradiol. I tried 2 mg and 4 mg per day. Hot flashes were less bothersome on 4 mg. Expect breast growth. Mine went to 38B by the end of the last trial, and remain there to this day (my nipples are also still sensitive though not as much as when on E). I actually enjoy my breasts, enough to have fun with and fill a 38B padded bra, but small enough that they aren't so obvious under loose clothing.

4) You MUST remain heavily physically active to preserve muscle and bone strength and avoid weight gain. I rode my bike 5000 and 6000 miles respectively in the two years I conducted these trials, and kept the pace up even when on the trials. Average speeds were down only slightly on the trials.

5) On my first trial, PSA which had been over 4 (I have an enlarged prostate) dropped to around 2. On the second trial, it dropped to below 1. Now off of hormones it's back up to 6.

All the trials were medically supervised by my endocrinologist and family doctor using the WPATH 7.0 transgender standards of care.

My family doctor renewed my Androcur at my last visit and wants me to resume it to get my PSA down again. Due to other medical issues I cannot take Dutasteride or Finasteride. I have been hesitant but I think I will resume Androcur. I'm not sure if I'll do it with or without estrogen.

As always YMMV and medical supervision is strongly recommended if you can find a trans-friendly doctor. I did mine with the WPATH letter but some will work by informed consent.

Here is one of my most detailed chemcastration blogs with duration of 4 months if I am correct. It starts days before and ends after T has fully returned, and there was nothing much to report.

http://forums.eunuch.org/showthread.php ... highlight=

erikboy (imported) wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:50 am Here is one of my most detailed chemcastration blogs with duration of 4 months if I am correct. It starts days before and ends after T has fully returned, and there was nothing much to report.

http://forums.eunuch.org/showthread.php ... highlight=

I admire!

But I certainly could not withstand such tests (even if I were completely healthy and had everything that men usually have).

Ablatethem (imported) wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:40 pm Reading through the medical literature, it seems that the latest trend with Androcur is to start with a higher dose but once the effect kicks in, taper off to the lowest dose possible. My theory: the higher dose shuts the testes down, the lower dose prevents them from restarting. The risks and side effects are less with a lower dose.

Throughout the trials, I did have issue with hot flashes/night sweats and they were bothersome. I loved the loss of sex drive and erections. I'm an avid cyclist and while I did find myself having to use the next easiest gear on hills (I ride in a VERY hilly area), I was still able to do long hilly rides. I did not gain weight, in fact I lost some weight on the third trial. I ascribe that to slightly lower muscle mass.

A few takeaways and bits of advice:

1) Androcur is not a benign drug, aim for the lowest dose possible; YMMV but 12.5 mg/day kept me in the castrate range even on the first trial when I had no Estradiol absorption. YMMV but aim for as low as possible.

2) If you do repeat trials, be prepared for testosterone levels not returning to their previous levels. It seems every rebound resulted in a loss of T-levels so that now they are below normal. I suspect if you do this often enough, you may end up permanently castrated, or at least T-deficient.

3) Your body needs sex hormones so if you can manage some feminizing, use Estradiol. I tried 2 mg and 4 mg per day. Hot flashes were less bothersome on 4 mg. Expect breast growth. Mine went to 38B by the end of the last trial, and remain there to this day (my nipples are also still sensitive though not as much as when on E). I actually enjoy my breasts, enough to have fun with and fill a 38B padded bra, but small enough that they aren't so obvious under loose clothing.

4) You MUST remain heavily physically active to preserve muscle and bone strength and avoid weight gain. I rode my bike 5000 and 6000 miles respectively in the two years I conducted these trials, and kept the pace up even when on the trials. Average speeds were down only slightly on the trials.

5) On my first trial, PSA which had been over 4 (I have an enlarged prostate) dropped to around 2. On the second trial, it dropped to below 1. Now off of hormones it's back up to 6.

I started with a high dosage - 200mg. First to have my androcur levels up faster, as if you start with very low levels, it takes several days before androcur accumulates in your body and achieves high levels enough to take effect. So 5 days at 200mg. then I dropped to 150mg for the next 10 days and from then on I kept dosage at 100mg until the time I started to fading out process at the end, which lasted 25 days dropping slowly and gradually to zero.

As a result my morning woods were completely gone in 9 days. Hot flashes and bad sleep emerged in a week.

For me very low doses of Androcur do not work. 50mg is too little for me. My levels start to rise above castrate levels and I can feel it by having Morning woods and return of hornyness. At T levels below 20ng/dL I feel myself nicely sexless. But at 50ng/dL and above I start to feel T effects. I know that because of frequent tests.

During this castration period I checked my PSA as well before and during, as I am over 45 now. Before it was 1,12 and at the 2.5 month mark my PSA has dropped to 0,1ug/L.

For me castration always mean a loss of weight. And quite considerably up to 10kg. And when I let my T to return, all that weight returns. This is not explainabale only by loosing muscle mass and fluids, as Androcur is a diuretic. During castration heavy work makes me breath heavy and makes me excessively sweaty. So I can not maintain very high activity levels. I also feel my self being slow. Even when I walk. So at times I force myself to walk faster.