justapup (imported) wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:38 pm The pronoun stuff is so interesting especially with the new neo-English people who say they are progressive are using. Like, Xe, Xim, and Xer.(X sounds like Z)

Guessing that I am old school even though I am only 34 I prefer they/them and he/him is okay when I am around people that don't know me.

Currently I call myself a Trans, non-binary eunuch. I even joke all the time with my husband that we are no longer gay. With all that said, I enjoy the company of men whether I think of myself as one or not and enjoy being gay. Though I'd def Crack the line of, "It's not gay if the balls don't touch." on a straight guy if he'd be up for some third gender action!

I use standard English male pronouns personally, and cringe somewhat whenever I encounter the they / them usage for a single individual....

I don't have any issues with the idea of a non-binary person not wanting to use the standard M/F pronouns, but the English grammar that I learned as a child and have used for to many years since as a reading enthusiast says they / them is the form for PLURAL or unknown number of individuals.... Non-binary is STILL SINGULAR!

So I prefer the Xe / Xim / Xer option, or any of the other variants on that theme that I've seen...

However I don't try to be any sort of 'Grammar Enforcer' and force my opinion on others... I TRY to respect the words others use although I find it difficult...

WheelyCurious

I believe what I'm mostly reading is what I've been thinking. The real problem is new ideas coming into being with a language inadequate to the job. English grew up in a world dominated by Judeo-Christian notions of gender. Old Hebrew also has no words for 'alive but without gender' other than whatever gets translated into eunuch in English.

Even in pre-revolution China it seems, eunuchs got the male pronoun, there being no other available.

I don't really know how to use those 'starts with a soft X' words. I've not yet encountered them in context. You remember being told why you were learning German too late in high school? It's easier if you're younger to learn a new language. I think words that represent a new abstract concept are harder too, the older one gets.

As I said, I don't mind the regular male pronoun. I've grown accustomed to Your Highness now.

WheelyCurious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:01 pm I use standard English male pronouns personally, and cringe somewhat whenever I encounter the they / them usage for a single individual....

I don't have any issues with the idea of a non-binary person not wanting to use the standard M/F pronouns, but the English grammar that I learned as a child and have used for to many years since as a reading enthusiast says they / them is the form for PLURAL or unknown number of individuals.... Non-binary is STILL SINGULAR!

WheelyCurious

Cool. Good luck on your journey. I am going to continue being cringe as it bothers so many. ��

Come on gentlefolk. Let's play nicely.

This is the thing. English doesn't have much space in this domain. We get three 'proper' third person singular pronoun types, male, female, and a neutral that nobody wants to be identified by, and understandably as it carries negative connotations.

Trying to shoehorn 'they' into the job of being a general purpose third person pronoun really does rankle those of us with an older style education though. Until this whole gender and language thing gets worked out, they is the closest we have, and it will do special purpose third person singular duty. The sentence: "If any one wants me to cum in their face, they can have it" allows 'they' to be singular in this special case, so adding another special case allowance and just getting used to it is probably the path of least resistance, and we know what humans are like.

In fact, this is English's second greatest strength. The ability to beg borrow or steal words from almost anywhere to suit new ideas and purposes. I don't think there are many languages with very much room around gender though, so it's no easy thing to go off and find some word from an obscure language that conveys the idea of 'alive but without gender', or "looks like this, but inside is that". I really don't think there are many at all out there. Maybe there's some ideas for new words for assorted genders in Hindi or Sanskrit.

Lets be patient with each other in this. I can't help feeling that there's more to come as we humans really dig deep and explore ourselves for the first time in history. There's just so much to work out.

Another thing that I wonder about is how can we know each other on sight. Once upon a time when there were only two genders allowed, you dressed as a boy or a girl, and we all thought we knew who each other was in this respect. Now, gender is scattered to the four winds. How might I know you were a eunuch? Should I have drop earrings made from my balls? Seriously, I'm thinking of having a miniature neutered symbol tattooed onto an earlobe. I don't know.

These are early days in us humans figuring out how we think we are rather than just how we look. Whatever goes on, just be nice. There's enough hostility already.

Peace, Love and Mung Beans

Billy.

English isn't a real language.

It's three other languages standing on anothers' shoulders, wearing a wide brim hat and a trench coat, trying to identify as a real language.

I really don't care what people call themselves... Just clean-up after yourself.

BillyBlogs (imported) wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:19 am Come on gentlefolk. Let's play nicely.

I have every intent of playing nicely, even while cringing...

BillyBlogs (imported) wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:19 am This is the thing. English doesn't have much space in this domain. We get three 'proper' third person singular pronoun types, male, female, and a neutral that nobody wants to be identified by, and understandably as it carries negative connotations.

Trying to shoehorn 'they' into the job of being a general purpose third person pronoun really does rankle those of us with an older style education though. Until this whole gender and language thing gets worked out, they is the closest we have, and it will do special purpose third person singular duty. The sentence: "If any one wants me to cum in their face, they can have it" allows 'they' to be singular in this special case, so adding another special case allowance and just getting used to it is probably the path of least resistance, and we know what humans are like.

In the case you mention, presumably the number of people is unknown, as well as their gender, though it sounds like a fun orgy

But when I see something like "Have you seen Billy (who is turning into Suzie)?" - "They went to the store" it hits me as a mismatch and leaves me wondering who else joined Billy in going to the store... It gives me the same sort of jolt as other sorts of bad grammar where you have to pause and figure out the intended meaning.

BillyBlogs (imported) wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:19 am In fact, this is English's second greatest strength. The ability to beg borrow or steal words from almost anywhere to suit new ideas and purposes. I don't think there are many languages with very much room around gender though, so it's no easy thing to go off and find some word from an obscure language that conveys the idea of 'alive but without gender', or "looks like this, but inside is that". I really don't think there are many at all out there. Maybe there's some ideas for new words for assorted genders in Hindi or Sanskrit.

Lets be patient with each other in this. I can't help feeling that there's more to come as we humans really dig deep and explore ourselves for the first time in history. There's just so much to work out.

I agree, and really hope that a better solution can be found.

BillyBlogs (imported) wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:19 am Another thing that I wonder about is how can we know each other on sight. Once upon a time when there were only two genders allowed, you dressed as a boy or a girl, and we all thought we knew who each other was in this respect. Now, gender is scattered to the four winds. How might I know you were a eunuch? Should I have drop earrings made from my balls? Seriously, I'm thinking of having a miniature neutered symbol tattooed onto an earlobe. I don't know.

These are early days in us humans figuring out how we think we are rather than just how we look. Whatever goes on, just be nice. There's enough hostility already.

Peace, Love and Mung Beans

Billy.

Seems like a bit of a chicken / egg situation - I'm not sure I want to be identified on sight unless I feel that it is accepted to the point where it is no more of a big deal to be a eunuch than it is to be a man or woman... It would be nicer than needing to hide if only because it wouldn't matter who knew...

WheelyCurious

Paolo wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 4:19 pm English isn't a real language.

It's three other languages standing on anothers' shoulders, wearing a wide brim hat and a trench coat, trying to identify as a real language.

Best description I've seen is that English started out as the result of Norman men at arms attempting to make dates w/ Saxon bar maids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other results....

WheelyCurious

Paolo wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 4:19 pm English isn't a real language.

It's three other languages standing on anothers' shoulders, wearing a wide brim hat and a trench coat, trying to identify as a real language.

Why am I suddenly thinking of Spike Milligan?

Yup. Bastard language. Spoken by bastard offspring. The genetic vigour of the cross is evident.

Billy.

WheelyCurious wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 5:40 pm I have every intent of playing nicely, even while cringing...

In the case you mention, presumably the number of people is unknown, as well as their gender, though it sounds like a fun orgy

But when I see something like "Have you seen Billy (who is turning into Suzie)?" - "They went to the store" it hits me as a mismatch and leaves me wondering who else joined Billy in going to the store... It gives me the same sort of jolt as other sorts of bad grammar where you have to pause and figure out the intended meaning.

I agree, and really hope that a better solution can be found.

Seems like a bit of a chicken / egg situation - I'm not sure I want to be identified on sight unless I feel that it is accepted to the point where it is no more of a big deal to be a eunuch than it is to be a man or woman... It would be nicer than needing to hide if only because it wouldn't matter who knew...

WheelyCurious

I have just found out that this way of using they is more accepted in the British English speaking world. (British English!?! Why is that not a redundant statement?)

I think it's come about as a sort of back formation from misusing 'they're'. 'They' gets used in this manner I suspect more here (Australia) than most of the English speaking world.

Having lived through the Gay rights movement, this is the thing. Visibility makes all the difference. What I am finding, at least here, is there's been a huge cultural shift. And as I've aged and sort of fallen out of popular culture, I haven't noticed. Younger people at large seem to be quite OK with a lot more variation than their parents were, that's for sure.

It was rough sometimes on those gay rights pioneers, but it was their bravery that won freedom for so many. At least in metropolitan areas, I think attitudes are softening at a remarkable rate. I think that ever so gradually, bigotry is becoming less and less fashionable. Lettuce prey.

Billy.