i don’t know much more of the eunuch situation than what i’ve been exposed to since i joined here fairly recently (a few months) and what i’ve read (i believe - some articles you have written and others). i have arrived at my own thoughts.

i believe that the testicles exist on the body the way they are, for easy removal. this may be outlandish - who was there to decide to have the body evolve this way? but i still think that one way or the other, they are in fact easy to remove. it could have been an evolutionary thing. perhaps this has played into eunuchism throughout history and certainly i considered doing it myself because there appear to be multiple ways of accomplishing castration that are relatively simple.

i believe that for myself, my desire to lose my masculinity this way was either or both of these: 1) collected debris from ancestral sexual abuse imprinted on my genes. 2) abuse in my own childhood (that i am unable to verify). both of these possibilities have made me very hateful of my genitals.

and i perceive that society as a whole has separated itself from ancient uses of castration and at the same time has decided that doing such nowadays - particularly if desired by the man in question - is simply an affront to everyone else’s sensibilities. they don’t want to consider what might be driving an individual to want castration.

it appears to me to be a societal thing - to presume that this is not a thing of relief for the individual who wants it, but an act of aggression on his part acted out on everyone else in society.

of course i have not studied this and only arrive at this from my own experience - the resistance i encountered from those i needed to accomplish my orchiectomy via medically safe means. also in my search for a medically safe way to have it done, i had to visit a place for transgender people where eunuchs do not appear to be considered transgender. i don’t agree with this of course but it even appeared that perhaps m to f and f to m people are dismissive of eunuchs. this may be due to eunuchs’ needs not being a very popular thing (yet). for myself, i’m not eager to lead the fight but i do recognize someone has to. i do need to learn more but i just completed a therapy program in a hospital and those i was in contact with were not all that familiar with the eunuch situation at present. my thoughts… hoping it is helpful.

i intend to watch the zoom. it would be at 1PM eastern time, right? eagerly awaiting the link!!!

dee2essohkay (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:24 pm i intend to watch the zoom. it would be at 1PM eastern time, right? eagerly awaiting the link!!!

Actually I believe it would be 7:00 PM EDT - we are 3 hours ahead of the folks in CA, not behind....

WheelyCurious

Not to mention the reproductive rights activists and clinics. I simply fail to understand why this is the case. It seems to me that a clinic that helps females to exercise their right over there body to have or not have children they would be more helpful for a male desiring the same. But we are talking about opinions of society in a given time of humans existence.

There are vasectomies for that. Castration is a whole different ballgame. While it obviously would work as birth control, vasectomy makes more sense for this purpose.

Well thought out belief. And you are quite right that to be eunuch in itself is not a gender or transgender thing. It is a physical body thing. It creates a male with less of the male genitals. It also creates a less aggressive of a male with less of the macho issues that often become a plague in many forms for society to deal with. You are also on the mark with your belief as I see it that to become eunuch is actually shunned by the gender/transgender community as well as sexual communities. (think gay community) as I've witnessed so many times.

Wolf-Pup (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:51 pm Not to mention the reproductive rights activists and clinics. I simply fail to understand why this is the case. It seems to me that a clinic that helps females to exercise their right over there body to have or not have children they would be more helpful for a male desiring the same. But we are talking about opinions of society in a given time of humans existence.

In many years past it was less taboo in society for a male to be eunuch. And in some cultures it is readily accepted. (think India) However, society is constantly evolving in one way or another. For the males who desire this let's hope that our society continues to evolve to be more acceptable to this desire..

It must depend on the clinic, or perhaps (hopefully) the times changing for the better... Thus far I've had ZERO issues with the TG center that I've been dealing with. I actually had less of an argument than I was expecting, it pretty much boiled down to telling the doc what I wanted, and giving enough of an explanation to show that I understood what I was asking for. She then did an informed consent rundown of the consequences and after that it was right to 'lets come up with a plan'...

She did say that I was her first M2E patient, and was somewhat having to do her homework on her side of things, but the only sort of problem I've had is that the center is just minimally ADA compliant - more because of the age of the building and cramped space, not by design... (and I did note at least one exam table that was low enough to be WC accessible if it is needed...)

I also haven't gotten any pushback from any of the other docs on my care team that I know to be aware of my goal. I haven't had reason to get reactions from any other 'people in society' and don't really expect to since I'm not planning on being out as a eunuch...

WheelyCurious

"

WheelyCurious wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:32 pm Actually I believe it would be 7:00 PM EDT - we are 3 hours ahead of the folks in CA, not behind....

WheelyCurious

"

yeah, you're right. I must have been standing on my head when I said that.

WheelyCurious wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:22 pm Well thought out belief. And you are quite right that to be eunuch in itself is not a gender or transgender thing. It is a physical body thing. It creates a male with less of the male genitals. It also creates a less aggressive of a male with less of the macho issues that often become a plague in many forms for society to deal with. You are also on the mark with your belief as I see it that to become eunuch is actually shunned by the gender/transgender community as well as sexual communities. (think gay community) as I've witnessed so many times.

Wolf-Pup (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:51 pm Not to mention the reproductive rights activists and clinics. I simply fail to understand why this is the case. It seems to me that a clinic that helps females to exercise their right over there body to have or not have children they would be more helpful for a male desiring the same. But we are talking about opinions

WheelyCurious wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:22 pm of society in a given time of humans existence.

In many years past it was less taboo in society for a male to be eunuch. And in some cultures it is readily accepted. (think India) However, society is constantly evolving in one way or another. For the males who desire this let's hope that our society c

ontinues to evolve to be more acceptable to this desire.

As to the history of eunuchs somebody (perhaps Jesus) once gave me a pdf of a study from a gentleman a couple centuries ago with a very good study of the history of eunuchs. I lost the file when I had to format a computer and wish to this day I could find it because it was an excellent read. Would love to read it again.

we as a community have to speak out. everyone who has their rights ignored and violated need to shout it out to the world. I am not a shouter. I have a feeling that many in the eunuch community are not shouter as well. maybe there is a way to get the news out to the world that eunuchs have rights too. maybe nonshouters will learn to shout.

WheelyCurious wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:22 pm It must depend on the clinic, or perhaps (hopefully) the times changing for the better... Thus far I've had ZERO issues with the TG center that I've been dealing with. I actually had less of an argument than I was expecting, it pretty much boiled down to telling the doc what I wanted, and giving enough of an explanation to show that I understood what I was asking for. She then did an informed consent rundown of the consequences and after that it was right to 'lets come up with a plan'...

She did say that I was her first M2E patient, and was somewhat having to do her homework on her side of things, but the only sort of problem I've had is that the center is just minimally ADA compliant - more because of the age of the building and cramped space, not by design... (and I did note at least one exam table that was low enough to be WC accessible if it is needed...)

I also haven't gotten any pushback from any of the other docs on my care team that I know to be aware of my goal. I haven't had reason to get reactions from any other 'people in society' and don't really expect to since I'm not planning on being out as a eunuch...

WheelyCurious

in my effort to get an orchiectomy via the local transgender place, i was told that i was high risk. (suicide risk due to a fear that i’d have surgery regret). i insisted that i was not a risk - that i’d been attempting to facilitate castration for easily 30 years, and was told that i do not meet the WPATH requirements - specifically to be on female hormones for a year prior, and to have a support system in place of accepting people. i repeatedly explained that i am not trying to become a woman. i also up to that time generally had no friends let alone a support system for transitioning. i, also over a few months, met some accepting trans people and made it know that my decision was being supported by my kids. i was then told that i did not meet DSM requirements also. what i encountered was road block after road block.

i finally found a urologist who understood that my self harm directed at my genitals (which the transgender place was well aware of also) was putting my life in danger and he understood that i was trying to get this surgery done in a medically safe way as opposed to doing it myself. in order to get the surgery approved, i was required to provide letters from appropriate professionals in the field stating that i understood what i was getting in to and knew as well the pros and cons. and also indicated that i was mentally fit to make such a decision. i also was given a State provided consent form stating the same. i complied with providing these documents and then getting the orchiectomy was approved. i had visions of the psychiatrist from the transgender place blocking the door to the OR. I just can’t help feeling that he was acting on WPATH 7 without regard to my well being and because i was not trying to be M to F. So my experience did indicate to me that there is some narrow minded thinking going on. but i’m so glad to learn that it is not everywhere!

JesusA (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:40 am The presentation will be at 4:00 pm (Pacific Standard Time) on Thursday, May 5th. I plan to speak for an “academic hour” (50 minutes) to allow for audience questions at the end.

I have two goals for the presentation: 1) describing the contemporary voluntary eunuchs and 2) violating common stereotypes about historical eunuchs. They were not simply the fat, lazy guardians of someone else’s women, but active participants in society, some of whom made important contributions.

It has long been a sensitive question for me how women, wives, potential partners can become interested partners and in increasing interest in the castrated.

dee2essohkay (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:34 pm in my effort to get an orchiectomy via the local transgender place, i was told that i was high risk. (suicide risk due to a fear that i’d have surgery regret). i insisted that i was not a risk - that i’d been attempting to facilitate castration for easily 30 years, and was told that i do not meet the WPATH requirements - specifically to be on female hormones for a year prior, and to have a support system in place of accepting people. i repeatedly explained that i am not trying to become a woman. i also up to that time generally had no friends let alone a support system for transitioning. i, also over a few months, met some accepting trans people and made it know that my decision was being supported by my kids. i was then told that i did not meet DSM requirements also. what i encountered was road block after road block.

i finally found a urologist who understood that my self harm directed at my genitals (which the transgender place was well aware of also) was putting my life in danger and he understood that i was trying to get this surgery done in a medically safe way as opposed to doing it myself. in order to get the surgery approved, i was required to provide letters from appropriate professionals in the field stating that i understood what i was getting in to and knew as well the pros and cons. and also indicated that i was mentally fit to make such a decision. i also was given a State provided consent form stating the same. i complied with providing these documents and then getting the orchiectomy was approved. i had visions of the psychiatrist from the transgender place blocking the door to the OR. I just can’t help feeling that he was acting on WPATH 7 without regard to my well being and because i was not trying to be M to F. So my experience did indicate to me that there is some narrow minded thinking going on. but i’m so glad to learn that it is not everywhere!

I have to wonder if the clinic / docs you were dealing with had heard / seen anything about the Draft WPATH SOC 8? While it hasn't been released officially yet, I've been told that all the good centers are quite aware of it and what is in it. I know the doc I'm dealing with knows about it. SOC 8 has several changes in different places that are good for us, with the biggest one being the addition of a chapter specifically about eunuchs (with much input from some of the folks here...) It gets rid of the entire transition to female stuff, and makes a lot of the other requirements easier. They do recommend a chemical castration trial before surgery, which I think makes sense. I think the doc being familiar w/ the draft is a big part of what smoothed my way.

Yes, there are vasectomies for male birth control. which is one alternative. I had a vasectomy at the age of 19. It was certainly a challenge getting it done at that age and in those years. There are also many forms of preventing birth for women. Abstinence, birth control to prevent conception of many different forms, morning after pills, as well as abortion. All are valid forms of preventing the birth of a child for females. Abstinence is something a male can practice without anybody's help but is not much practiced by young males. Vasectomies is shunned for young males by the medical establishment but does not always work. Case in point I fathered my only child after having a vasectomy. It can be pretty much guaranteed that a castrated male will not father a child. And it is much more difficult to get than the aforementioned forms of birth control for men. So your point is well taken. Thank you for bringing it up.

Of course there is the basic huge problem with ANY form of male birth control which limits its effectiveness, in that no matter how well you shut down one there are still going to be plenty of other 's that will be more than willing to supply the needed to get her a little bit pregnant... While I totally agree that his efforts can and should help, biology says that stopping her side is going to be more effective...

I am so glad for your positive experience. It is rather telling that you needed to go to a transgender clinic to find what you are looking for. Each region of the world has different attitudes toward becoming eunuch as described by quite the opposite experience described by dee2essohkay with his attempts of reaching his goal. Not all of us consider ourselves to be some form of transgender. Personally I don't consider myself to be transgender. I don't consider myself a male identifying as a female. Factually I am a male with male genitals removed. The well established and historical dictionary definition of a eunuch. I don't feel like I am a female as I know I am not and with Y chromosomes I will never be a female. I did not seek a transgender clinic to get my nullification accomplished. To be honest I don't even know if such a thing existed in 1994. They may have, I don't know. For me if they had I would not have gone to one since I would not have been willing to bow to their requirements in order to have a simple nullification. It would have entailed saying I wanted something which I didn't and to me that would have been a lie.

I am so very glad that things are evolving to where that is not necessary. Slowly but they are evolving.

Well in the perfect world, I would like to see them change the name to something like "Gender Modification Center" or some other sort of 'gender neutral' terminology.

But given that any changes to the body in that area is going to need the same sort of surgical skills, equipment, etc. it seems like you'd end up wanting to see the same set of specialists regardless of the starting point and desired end result. I'd also argue mildly that 'trans' means change or travel, but doesn't specify the end result, and going M2E is just as much a change as the full M2F (or F2M) so 'trans-gender' still fits.

Either way I figure the name on the door is the least of our problems, more important is being able to go through it.

WheelyCurious

PRAISE JESUS!

VERY good and informative talk... Sorry it wasn't recorded, as it was well worth listening to...

WheelyCurious (who asked the SOC 8 question BTW)