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Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:17 pm
by A-1 (imported)
Dave (imported) wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:45 pm There's going to be a monstrous bunch of rule changes because if you live in a state that doesn't recognize same sex marriage but are married in a second state and filing Federal Taxes as married, what tax forms do you file in the state you live in? THe Supreme Court didn't require one state to follow another state's rules. It wasn't that broad.

Also, in states where there are military bases and a same sex spouse lives onbase in married housing what does that do to their status in the state if the state does not recognize same sex marriage?

There's all sorts of chances for mischief that can be played out.

Oh BOY!

Now somebody has the chance to fuck the RED states back,,,

Bend over, Rednecks, and prepare for the "RIDE ON THE RAINBOW"... 😄

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:16 pm
by Dave (imported)
>>Years ago when the Supreme COurt decided to strike down the sodomy laws, SCALIA went on a rant much like he did today.

>>Much of what he feared would happen did happen.

>>And Gerstein explores his decision in light of Scalia's powers of prediction.

>>

The DOMA decision ripple effect

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/d ... ml?hp=t1_3

By JOSH GERSTEIN | 6/26/13 8:49 PM EDT

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/d ... z2XNmnDu48

The Supreme Court’s same-sex marriage decisions managed to do the impossible: get gay rights advocates and conservative Justice Antonin Scalia to agree.

Writing for the majority striking down the Defense of Marriage Act, Justice Anthony Kennedy was unsparing, declaring that the law’s “purpose and effect [is] to disparage and to injure” those in same-sex marriages, subjecting them to “a stigma” that “humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by same-sex couples.”

Kennedy insisted this kind of language wasn’t meant to support marriage equality litigation in future state-by-state fights, but the justice often seen as the intellectual leader of the court’s conservative wing wasn’t convinced.

“By formally declaring anyone opposed to same-sex marriage an enemy of human decency, the majority arms well every challenger to a state law restricting marriage to its traditional definition,” Scalia warned.

Precisely, say the prospective challengers.

“Scalia’s dissent is absolutely on the money,” American Civil Liberties Union executive director Anthony Romero told POLITICO. “It’s going to open the floodgates for litigation applying equal protection standards to laws discriminating against LGBT people.”

“It gives me great joy” to find agreement with Scalia, gay rights activist and Clinton White House adviser Richard Socarides said. He said Kennedy’s withering condemnation of the motivations of same-sex marriage opponents and his lamentations about the impact of discrimination on the children of same-sex couples will be a major boon for the gay rights cause.

“I think the language is going to be extremely useful because it’s very powerful and it makes clear the court takes a very dim view of laws targeting gay people,” Socarides said.

Several gay rights advocates noted that a decade ago Scalia predicted in his dissent in Lawrence v. Texas that the court’s ruling overturning anti-sodomy laws would lead inexorably to the legalization of same-sex marriage.

“Let’s hope he’s right about this, too,” Socarides quipped.

”It’s always a sobering proposition to think that I’m in agreement with Justice Scalia,” said Susan Sommer of Lambda Legal. “I certainly think it’s true when the Supreme Court pronounces on equality and liberty of gay and lesbian Americans, of course it’s a building block for equality nationwide…We look to our precedents and the deeper principles they enunciate and this opinion will give ammunition for the future.”

Of course, the two sides are in agreement only up to a point: the cascade of pro-same-sex-marriage court rulings gay rights activists view fondly hope for seems to represent one of Scalia’s greatest fears.

The celebration Wednesday among gay rights advocates can certainly be justified solely on what was accomplished in the DOMA case: obliterating the federal government’s bans on tax, health, immigration and other marriage-related benefits for same-sex couples.

However, Kennedy’s majority opinion in the DOMA case falls short of something both gay groups and the Obama Administration asked the court to do: explicitly declare that government classifications based on sexual orientation are subject to “heightened scrutiny” by the court.

Kennedy’s majority opinion mentions that standard in passing, noting that President Barack Obama and a federal appeals court had concluded that heightened scrutiny applied to DOMA’s discrimination against same-sex couples. However, while such levels of scrutiny are a central aspect of Supreme Court equal protection rulings on race or gender, Kennedy never returns to that point.

Instead, the majority borrows a more amorphous “careful consideration” standard from the court’s 1996 ruling against a Colorado ballot measure that banned anti-discrimination protections for gays and lesbians.

Anthony Kennedy suggested that the language in the decision wasn't meant for future litigation.

”It’s not the race standard, not the gender standard, not strict scrutiny or even heightened scrutiny,” Socarides said. “I think Kennedy is carving out a new test for sexual orientation that blends his equal protection and due process approach.”

“It’s a strange bird,” said former Scalia clerk Kevin Walsh, now a professor at the University of Richmond. “The doctrinal lens is a new amalgamation of federalism principles and some type of heightened scrutiny it seems like but it doesn’t quite fit any preexisting category.”

Kennedy’s vague standard about when laws based on sexual orientation would and would not be valid quickly drew the ire of same-sex marriage opponents.

“He doesn’t do any constitutional analysis or equal protection analysis,” complained Mat Staver, chief of Liberty Counsel and dean of the Liberty University Law School. “There’s no parameters, no objective analysis, no guidance as to how to apply this other than if you use enough horrible words about people who don’t agree with same-sex marriage, you win….He resorts to, essentially, name calling.”

While those on all sides of the marriage debate seem certain that there will be a concerted effort to drag Kennedy’s opinion into future gay rights litigation, some experts said Kennedy’s opinion does draw lines that plausibly separate it from those fights.

University of Chicago Law Professor Geoffrey Stone said Kennedy’s opinion “reinforces in significant rhetorical ways” the drive to legalize same sex marriage. However, the professor said, the decision doesn’t definitively resolve many of the key arguments opponents of same-sex marriage put forward. Instead, the frequent swing justice casts those arguments as inapplicable when asserted by the federal government.

“It’s not addressing the question of whether there are any interests a state could put forth that would be sufficient to sustain” a ban on same-sex marriage, Stone said. “It doesn’t address claims that marriage has historically been limited to a man and a woman…..It doesn’t address the argument that [same-sex] marriages are unstable. It doesn’t address the argument that same-sex marriages are bad for children….He goes out of his way not to address them.”

Stone, who said he doesn’t personally find those arguments persuasive, also noted that Kennedy’s opinion appeared to be confined to the issue of marriage and doesn’t directly address other types of legislation that could hurt gays and lesbians.

Romero called the ruling “huge” and “a tipping point, but said the ACLU will be hedging its bets on the legal impact of the decision. The civil liberties groups is pressing on with litigation in some states but also mounting a significant legislative effort to legalize gay marriage in many of the 37 states where it is not legal, and in many cases, banned.

The ACLU has hired Republican strategist Steve Schmidt, a top adviser to Sen. John McCain’s 2008 campaign, to build GOP support in the states for legislation to make gay marriage legal. “There’s support for marriage equality among Republicans ranging from moderates to the Tea Party,” Romero said, offering a pitch that casts the issue as one of “limited government.”

Romero noted that the DOMA case the court decided Wednesday left intact a portion of the 1996 law that says states can’t be forced to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states. He said that means marriage rights in every state remain critical even if same-sex couples have more and more places they can tie the knot.

“After today’s decisions we’re going to have marriage equality for 94 million Americans, almost one third of the American population, but two third still do not have the right to marry in their respective states,” Romero said. “You can go get married someplace else, but that doesn’t mean you have those rights when you go home.”

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:21 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
This brings about some strange ideas. If a couple goes to lets say California and gets married, then goes back to lets say Texas, and then files a joint return on their federal tax which a copy goes to the state with their state tax and the state decides that they are not in fact married and tries to put a penalty on them would that cause that couple to then file for discrimination causing this to go back to the Supreme Court where they would then need to rule on marriage equality for the whole country?

They could then drag it out saying that states must reconize marriages from other states, in which case every LGBT couple would be heading for the dozen or so states to get married then flaunt it in the face of their home state.

OR

Is as the lawyer for prop 8 stated after the ruling that prop 8 is still in effect as it is the law in California and therefore the only legal marriage is between a man and a woman?

Yea, I thought so too.

River

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:25 pm
by Dave (imported)
Several points:

As I understand the legal practices...

Prop 8 isn't in effect but it isn't gone. Decision of the Supreme Court take about 25 days to publish its ruling and in that time it isn't official. However, judges can act on it immediately. However, the Circuit Courts wait for 25 days to rescind their stays as a matter of common practice. It is the 9th Circuit that has an injunction maintaining the status quo.

The SC order says that the complainants did not have standing therefore the appeal to the SC vanishes as a matter of law. HOwever, The complainants might as for a review at the Circuit Court level. What exactly that means I don't know.

It's explained in this article.

http://www.newser.com/article/da75n8901 ... riage.html

Wikipedia has an excellent article on the case here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollingsworth_v._Perry

I suggest you read the "findings of fact" to see how broad Walker's decision really is.

Gay Marriage was legal in California for several months and those marriages remain legal.

At this time, the only new marriages that are recognized (and I think "recognized" is the proper word) are between two sexes.

When the 9th CIrcuit Court vacates Prop 8 and lifts the injunctions, then same sex marriage will be recognized.

As for moving between states.

This is what I hinted at in my earlier post. The SC did not strike down the section of DOMA that lets one state ignore the other states marriage practices. So a same sex couple can marry in one state and if they move to another state that forbids same sex marriage, that state doesn't ahve to recognize their marriage.

How do we get out of this conundrum?

Well this has happened before with Interracial Marriage. At first that was not legal in all states and eventually it became the law for all 50 states.

However, the brilliance of Judge Walker and his very broad decision and detailed decision when he struck down Prop 8... It was tailored toward Justice Kennedy. When the appeal to the Supreme Court was definite, David Boies and Ted Olson teamed up to couch the attack on prop 8 in terms of equality rights, the fifth amendment and 14th amendments. Walker tied the validity of Same SEx Marriage to Equal Rights. That puts Same SEx Marriage on the same terms as Interracial Marriage and the anti-sodomy decision.

What that means in practice is that in each state, a legal action will be possible when someone is "damaged" by a state law then they will have a cause of action. So the states that don't allow or recognize Same Sex Marriage will require separate legal actions and that will take time and effort but eventually the bans against same sex marriage and its recognition must fall as a matter of equal rights...

One last thing:

Scalia predicts all of this in his doom and gloom dissent. SCOTUSBLOG says:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/06/doma- ... e-dissent/

It’s hard not to hear in Scalia’s remarks today an echo of the prediction he made in his equally heated dissent from Lawrence ten years ago – that, having struck down the anti-sodomy law of Texas on the basis that its 2003 its opinion invoked, the Court could not logically stop short of invalidating as an insult to equal dignity and liberty any state law limiting marriage to same-sex couples.

And in this dissent, Scalia predicts that any ban on same sex marriage will fall in every state. It is a matter of equal rights.

So the fight continues but on a different scale.

Just as we no longer view interracial marriage as wrong, one day society will view same sex marriage as appropriate. That day is not far away. I would guess less than a decade away.

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:25 pm
by Losethem (imported)
I think I said it on another thread but can't readily find it but...

I've always said since the beginning of this debate that it's not going to be the marriages in various states that will cause the to become nationwide in the US, it's going to be the divorce cases that arise out of those marriages.

Example: A homosexual couple and a heterosexual couple get married in Iowa. Both for whatever reason move to North Carolina where they recently passed something called Amendment 1 (their Prop 8). Things happen, both couples holding identical marriage certificates from Iowa decide they want to get divorced.

The heterosexual couple has no problems accomplishing this in the North Carolina courts. The homosexual gets turned away due to NC Amendment 1. Both these couples have the same exact documents from Iowa - so why is North Carolina allowed to say the straight couple can get divorced but the gay couple can't? Is that a violation of the full faith and credit, and the equal protection portions of the US Constitution?

In this case North Carolina is picking and choosing which documents from Iowa they will recognize based on sexual orientation, when the Iowa documents are otherwise identical.

Basically the divorces will force this issue nationally. States cannot pick and choose what documents they will accept from other states - they either accept them all or they accept none of them, otherwise the one that isn't recognized is suffering "injury" from the state government in NC because they are not being treated equally in the law - they are being excluded because of a trait.

--LT

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:36 am
by Riverwind (imported)
You are most likely correct LT, however I think the divorce rate is much lower for gay couples then straight.

At any rate the sooner that this next case hits the Supreme Court the better, it will make it the law of the land.

And to MOI, you keep talking states rights over federal rights, this is one of those cases that federal law will trump states. Now do you understand? (most likely not).

River

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:22 am
by gareth19 (imported)
Riverwind (imported) wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:36 am And to MOI, you keep talking states rights over federal rights, this is one of those cases that federal law will trump states. Now do you understand? (most likely not).

River

No, DOMA actually asserted a federal control (and negation) over individual states' decisions to allow gay marriage. This is a case where the claim of Congressional oversight was rejected. Congress has no right to tell Massachusetts that its gay marriages are not real marriages for purposes of federal statute. Just as Obama's dot-matrix generated birth certificate is a real birth certificate because the state of Hawaii says so, and Donald Trump, Joe Arpaio, and Fox News do not have veto power over the laws of Hawaii, so the dozen states that recognize gay marriage are not answerable to any heavily funded hate groups. Mr. Justice Scalia rightly sees that this decision will prove to be a death blow to his cherished ideals of bigotry in the remaining states. The amicus curiae brief signed on by many US companies noted that the provisions of DOMA required separate and quite unequal tax policies relating to straight-married couples and gay-married couples (and that DOMA was consequently an accounting nightmare and burden on businesses. The 38 bigot-states are free to refuse to recognize gay marriage, but in refusing to do so, they are unable to offer the same spousal benefits to gay employees because by federal and state law spousal benefits are not taxed as income, but if they offer such benefits to their gay employees, the value of those benefits is taxable income; either their gay employees face higher tax burdens than their straight employees, or they make up the difference with higher salaries. Either way such companies are forced to engage in discriminatory hiring practices. The consequences of this are endless litigation on hiring policies or move to a state where you don't have these problems. Maybe Alabama has no aspirations of offering innovative high-tech jobs, but what about Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, or even Texas? Will they long accept second-class status as centers for economic growth?

In the Prop 8 ruling, the court asserted that only the state of California can challenge a court ruling against one of its laws, not disgruntled bigots funded by the Mormon Church. Once again, the sovereignty of the states has trumped bigotry.

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:44 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
If you say so - I would not want to counter your argument in any way, its just to damn hot, of course you missed my whole point that I was making I guess I was not cerebral enough for you.

Then again this is part of an on going conversation both public and private that I have been having with Moi for months. Of course you know everything about what were talking about, your just that good.

River

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:24 pm
by moi621 (imported)
Friend, River, DEAR 🤗 👯

We never, ever discussed DOMA and the 10th Amendment or States' Rights.

Unless you insist because you are powerful

Please, initiate a thread:

"Appropriate Powers Reserved For The States in the 21st Century"

and let's discuss. Really discuss. 🙏

Since we have national standards on what constitutes marriage, why not divorce too?

Can anyone remember times of one State's marriage not being recognized by another?

I can. Messy. Messy. Messy.

Moi

River DEAR 💋 now that we are 6 days beyond the Solstice

Do you feel your energy powering up? ;)

Re: DOMA is struck down as unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:12 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
Oh moi, we have and more then once, hell you talk about it with every post.

No we don't need yet another thread.

Don't worry it will happen.

The only thing the solstice has done is give us yet more rain.

and humidity,

and more rain,

and a flooded basement,

and more rain,

did I say we have been having some rain?

River