You're seeing the power of positive thoughts and actions at work. Rather than thinking too much and/or obsessing, you're being productively active in managing your own situation. That's as constructive and productive as you can possibly be, and always good for you.

I wish you great success, especially if you experience minor setbacks or inconveniences along the way. Identifying the actual source of these feelings in a logical, sensible manner, and especially recording and monitoring them, is the best thing you can do for yourself. Having doctors assist and counsel you makes it almost perfect.

I heard back from my family doctor and he wants me to come in next Tuesday to discuss options. With any luck I will get to start HRT sometime next week. I'm still just cautiously optimistic.

Anyway, for a different perspective I decided to share my story on a transgendered message board. The first reply that I got back was that I might consider myself genderqueer. My first thoughts were, "Eeek. What in the hell is that?" But after riding through my knee jerk reaction and looking at it a bit closer, it got me to thinking. For the uninitiated, genderqueer is basically the idea that you identify outside of the two strict sexes. Wikipedia, states that you may identify "as being both man and woman or as being neither man nor woman." In some ways it is a catch all phrase. I'm not for sure why, but it gave me a new way to look within myself. What if gender is more of a spectrum and you might even be able to pick and choose from each gender? So with a no holds bar look at myself, how do I identify myself? It probably isn't surprising to any of you, but I'd say that I partially identify as a man, but definitely not as a woman.

And this uneasy partial identification as a man creates problems. The degree of identification slightly shifts just a little one way or the other over time. But it's like my system loses its balance with just a slight change. It either throws my thinking toward being an eunuch and wanting to cut off my balls and being a lot less masculine. Or it trips me to embracing the masculinity that I have, but it leaves me feeling unhappy or uneasy with the degree that I feel that I am a man. In some ways, this is why I feel that I could probably do well by either increasing the amount of testosterone that I have or fairly significantly decreasing the amount of testosterone. It's like being in the middle is just bound to create problems over time for me. And it is one that is bound to trip me up over and over again.

If adding more testosterone can push how I feel, far enough inside, it will stabilize how I feel and I can feel complete as a man. It's possible that even if I don't whole sale feel like a guy inside and it prevents me from wanting to reject my masculinity, than it seems like a reasonable solution to me. There may not be a perfect solution to all of this and I'm okay with that.

Some of this entirely conjecture and it is going to take some experimenting around with HRT to really know if I'm just making shit up. Or if this has some basis in my own psyche.

Testosterone is but one hormone. Have you had a complete analysis done by an endocrinologist? The body's hormones interact with one another. An over or under production by one can cause a cascade effect throughout many hormones.

Try to not overthink. Thinking too much will only put you into a mental spiral.

Consider adding meditation to your day.

I only know that once testosterone was dramatically decreased I felt better.

I too am looking for that point in T level where I maintain good mental, emotional, and physical health, but without thoughts and obsessions on sex.

Practice deep breathing exercises. Done with meditation, this may help you get through each day, one day at a time.

I am not experienced with hypnosis, but it might be an option too.

Hi nullochis,

I think the key with this problem IS to clearly understand it and not simply act out on the problem. Otherwise, there is a lot of possibility for doing something that is inherently wrong and having lots of regret afterward because of permanent changes. There is such a thing as being obsessive, but I'm not in that territory yet. If my critical thinking was on loop and unproductive and unyielding in new insight, then I would agree that I need to pull back. So far that doesn't seem to be the case.

In fact, I would STRONGLY encourage others struggling with these issues to seek professional help so that they may consistently evaluate what's going on over a longer period of time even through other distractions in life. For me, I have found the process to be a positive effluence on my own self understanding once I found the right person to talk to. They can help ask the right questions to frame the discussion into something that yields insight and maybe even help you work through areas that you unintentionally don't deal with. The longer you have suppressed and denied yourself from working through these kinds of deep dark issues, the more opportunity I feel there is to be had by seeking out professional help.

For the most part I am happy with the understanding that I have of myself on the issue of castration. It is clear enough that I feel comfortable with going forward with HRT. I don't feel that it is irrational nor do I feel that I am acting impulsively. There are several problems in life where I have delayed and suppressed thinking about the problem for YEARS. This is one of them. It wasn't until I was diagnosed with bipolar did this messy problem make it onto the table for dissection. And really it has been the last couple of years that I have made the most progress on dealing with it.

I feel that without a doubt, one of the keys to dealing with any mental health issue is to have self awareness. Without it, it can compromise your ability to make good decisions and prevent you from developing appropriate and necessary coping skills. In the case of castration, self awareness may be one of the most important things to ensure that one does not do something they later regret. And for me, writing has a way of clarifying my thoughts. A long time ago, I use to write solely for myself. I might write for an hour or two every couple of days during my worst struggles, but I never had any intention of sharing them with others. But if I'm going to all the trouble of writing, I might as well share it with others if it offers any possibility of helping them with their own similar problems. And that is why I have created this thread. It is just as much for my benefit as it hopefully is for others. And maybe it will help someone think more deeply about their own problems and to hopefully make the best possible decision for their own unique situation.

No, I have not seen an endocrinologist. I suppose anything is possible and that something may be out of whack. But thus far there is nothing physical to suggest that something might be wrong. I'll see what my family doctor thinks I should do when I meet with him next Tuesday. He may want to run some blood work anyway before starting me on HRT.

Meditation is not a bad suggestion. I have practiced Yoga a few times through out the last 6 years or so. It can help you relax and focus in a way that is hard to describe. My other half use to kid me that I appeared to be on Valium after a good workout. But I also feel that meditation has to fit within your lifestyle. I used to practice yoga more to keep my body loose and stretched than anything. If you weight lift a lot, your muscles definitely tighten up much faster than if you don't. The affect that yoga had on my mind and well being was just a side benefit. It wasn't a strong enough reason to keep doing it for that reason alone.

You might be glad to know that I have not struggled significantly in the last 6 months or so since I began seeing my therapist. Overall, things have been pretty good. Occasionally my mood has been a little off, but nothing too extreme or for too long. That is just something I have to learn to live with. It is a part of being bipolar. And because I feel pretty stable in general, I feel this is definitely a reasonable time to start HRT. Otherwise, it would be totally unreasonable if I was having serious mood issues.

As far as hypnosis, I'm not for sure about it. What exactly would I be trying to accomplish?

I appreciate your response. And I'm really happy that you found what is right for you--dramatically decreasing your level of testosterone. As for me? I'm not for sure what is right, but I hope that with a long trial of HRT I will find the answer.

Considering that the university that I work for was closed, I was not initially optimistic that my doctor's office would be open. To elaborate the point, I was quite annoyed for the second day in a row when I tried to go to the gym. After spending 20 minutes getting the ice off of my car that had been deposited there yesterday, I had to turn around and come back home without working out. But on my way home I saw that the trip odometer had just rolled over to 144 miles. I swear I'm not superstitious or anything, but that has been *my* number since high school. It probably doesn't help that when I see the number I start looking for something good to happen. LoL. Kind of a self re-enforcing thing I'm quite sure.

Okay, I'm getting way off track. I arrived at the doctor's office plenty early. I know that you are generally only allowed 10-15 minutes for your appointment to talk, but I wanted to give my doctor and I every opportunity to spend as much time together discussing this as possible. My doctor's nurse smiled when I told her that I didn't have any anxiety today. And my vitals were normal unlike last time.

Someone didn't show up for their appointment, so I got a little extra time than I otherwise would have if they had showed up. My family doctor is a very caring guy. I have been seeing him for over a decade as my primary care physician. I would describe him as someone that listens and always wants to help. I value his opinion. It was good that he had visited with my therapist. Because of also having bipolar he was initially a little suspect on what was going on just based on my initial consultation that I had with him during my last visit. Bipolar can present perplexing and complicated issues at times. I once read somewhere as advice to therapists, "If you are confused about the patient's symptoms and you don't know what is going on, suspect bipolar." It always struck me as funny and I wasn't all that surprised when my family doctor told me he had doubts that I had some kind of GID issue. I know I have been a pain in the ass over the years. But he also trusts my therapist who strongly believes that I have a GID issue that needs to be resolved.

He seemed a little confused when I said that I don't identify as being female in any way, but I also don't completely identify as male either. He looked at me funny and I said that it falls under the umbrella term genderqueer. And I went on to explain what it meant. He asked me what my therapist thought of it and I told him that it doesn't really surprise him too much. I think when people think GID, they tend to think M2F or F2M and that's it. But kind of like the area of sexuality, gender bending takes on variation outside of the strict binary gender classifications.

My doctor mentioned that he had done quite a bit of research and read through all of the academic related material I had given him last week. I really appreciate his time and effort on this. He gave me several options on lowering my testosterone level. I was initially surprised that he was thinking about options outside of depo provera. To me at least, it seems the most straight forward and the most commonly used outside of Siterone, which isn't approved here by the FDA in the United States. Then again my expertise comes down to self experimentation and anecdotal self reports on this site, which is good and all but maybe there are other things to consider too. And I haven't really had any problems trialing depo provera outside of maybe raising my blood pressure just a little and the mood problems it causes when I stop taking it. However, he was a little hesitant about any depo (injection) option at this point because they have long time frames that they are active and it is hard to adjust up or down within a short amount of time. I could have swore he mentioned the possibility of using a GnRH antagonist. I should have questioned him a bit more about that. The only thing that I'm aware of is Lupron which is ridiculously expensive and it could be the best option if I was wanting a complete shut down of testosterone. He could have been referring to something else, so I don't really know.

I listened intently during all of this. For a moment, I wasn't 100% sure if he thought that I wanted to go ALL the way down in testosterone. If so, I think that is a REALLY bad idea in the long term because of things like osteoporosis and problems with depression. I know that I would feel relief with a lower testosterone level, but I don't think it needs to go down to castrate levels for it to be effective at resolving my issue. I think the goal should be to minimize the change in hormone levels relative to my current baseline in order to get relief.

There is some possibility that being down at castrate levels may be right for me, but it simply scares the shit out of me. And i'm not for sure I could conceptually and cognitively accept that circumstance. I know I am driven to extremes, but even I have some internal limits. However, I would not have a problem accepting being at a testosterone level at the bottom of the range.

He went just a bit too fast when talking about the GnRH antagonist and the following option. He started mentioning about taking progesterone orally in addition to something else, but I'm not for sure what that something else was. I was kind of surprised by it all. It seems that others have taken progesterone orally and found it to have little effect. Does that seem right? Maybe I misunderstood something. I lost lock on what he was saying for just a moment. I think it had to do with my own surprise at the mention of a GnRH antagonist.

During my previous appointment with my family doctor, I had mentioned trying to start at the high end of

guy26 (imported) wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:09 pm the normal range of testosterone a

nd working down. Up to this point, he hadn't mentioned anything about it, so I re-iterated the possibility of going up on testosterone just to make sure that going down is the right thing. I suppose by now he shouldn't be surprised by anything. But he looked at me again with surprise. I know. It seems completely paradoxical to even suggest it.

I mentioned that I strongly felt that if going up had some possibility to resolve or nearly resolve my issue, I would find that much more preferable given the long term consequences of being low on testosterone. I told him that I felt there was only about a 40% chance or less of it working. And I mentioned that my peers that had been castrated and found themselves on HRT, felt even less optimistic that it held much promise. But even so, I wanted to be sure. And I don't feel there is much harm in trying.

It seemed his biggest initial reaction was one of caution. He said that if it exacerbates my GID problem, then I would have stop immediately. I kind of laughed when he mentioned that. That is the whole point of trying it! LoL. I want to be really really sure that going down is the right decision. I need to have that confidence before committing to a long term plan of testosterone at the low end of normal to below normal. I would be happy in a way if I go up on testosterone and I feel that it is absolutely wrong. To me that would be a clear signal that going down is the right option. And I would no longer have doubts. As a reminder, the only reason I have some doubts is because of my experience with pro-hormones from years ago.

I asked him if he felt comfortable with this option and he said yes. He said that if I'm already at the high end of the normal testosterone range, then there would be no room to go up and it wouldn't be an option. I reminded him again that I had it checked twice in the past and I was right in the middle of the range. He double checked on the computer and said okay, you're right. I asked him if we go up and I am in the middle of the range, then what would be the target. He said the high end of course.

Because I don't have significant permanent damage, it complicates matters just a little on trying to reach some target testosterone level. And in my own research, I haven't felt completely happy with my understanding on the matter. So I asked him on how fast and how much the HPT (hypothalamus pitu

guy26 (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:29 pm itary testicular) axis adjusts to exter

nal sources of TRT (testosterone replacement therapy). He said that within a month my body will have adjusted its own production of testosterone down in response to taking exogenous testosterone. And by three months with a stable amount of exogenous testosterone there shouldn't be much if any changes to the HPT axis.

Given all that, my family doctor agreed to start me out with testosterone and a target of the high end of normal. But he wanted to get a more recent testosterone reading before proceeding. That sounds like a good idea given what I've recently done and the fact that the two previous readings were from 5 years ago. I am really curious if what I did will show up in the test. Based on my own internal sense of things, which has been proven to be a bad indicator by others on here for gauging ones level of testosterone, I don't think anything has really changed. I'm guessing that I am still right in the middle of normal. We shall see and I will let you know here in a couple of days when the test comes back.

At this point my doctor made it a point to let me know that my insurance may not pay for any of this. I told him I know. It seems that some insurance companies do not like to pay for GID related problems--both hormones and surgeries. In this case, it might even be less likely because my specific problem is less understood medically and it is an even rarer kind of GID problem. Krister, mentioned that my problem may only affect about 1 in 25,000 people. I don't know how that number was calculated, but this is a very rare problem indeed. And considering how difficult and taboo of an issue, many people probably never even present themselves to professionals for help, which obviously keeps this kind of problem in the dark.

My family doctor mentioned that he would prefer that I use androgel. I'm okay with that initially even if insurance is unwilling to pay. It is damn expensive, but I have the money for it for now. And this is more of an experiment than anything. No one really knows how this is going to affect my GID problem. To me it is important that I finally deal with this issue and find a resolution. Money isn't exactly the overriding factor at this point. If in the unlikely case that going up on testosterone somehow makes me feel enough like of a man inside and resolves the incongruity, then it will be more important that insurance contribute somehow or we switch to something cheaper like weekly injections of testosterone cypionate. Giving myself injections doesn't scare or concern me. If I can do it with depo provera, I don't see why any other muscular injection would be different.

So before I left, I had to have my blood drawn. My doctor left the room and said that someone would be in shortly to take my blood. He joking left the room almost singing the words "you are going to get your testosterone measured." I laughed and then the room was quiet. The phlebotomist arrived after 5 minutes. She was quiet and pleasant. Normally I am slightly nervous about having my blood drawn, but after having gone through quiet an epic conversation with my family doctor, it seemed mild in comparison. Imagine that.

This is hopefully the last step before starting on the journey to finding an answer. Because God knows I have waited half my life for this. I was so surprised when she stuck me with the needle. It was the least amount of pain I have ever felt when having my blood drawn. Maybe she stuck me in a small vein because it took a bit more time than usual to fill up the test tube. When she was done, I was compelled to tell her what I was thinking. There are at least a couple of realty TV shows based on addiction. And I recalled how I watched a woman who had been addicted to heroin for 10 years try to find a vein on her body that she could reach and inject her drug. Virtually all of the near surface veins had collapsed. After an hour she gave up and asked her boyfriend to help. Eventually they resorted to injecting heroin into her carotid artery on her neck! Holy Shit! It was so painful to watch. They didn't cut away for even a moment. Damn them. LoL. My phlebotomist recoiled in horror and disbelief and told me that she could never inject herself. But she said she didn't have any problem doing it to others. I'd hope not!

You might be wondering why I felt compelled to offer so many details about my latest trip to visit my general practitioner. I could have just told you, "Yeah, my doctor agreed to start me on testosterone." It's because I know many on here are scared to approach the medical profession and ask for help. I have been there myself. What we face in being drawn toward castration, whether it is BIID or GID based, is difficult or near impossible to approach them with it. Many on here act on their own accord or seek out back door cutters or more recently are injecting everclear into their testicles on their own. I completely understand all of that and have nearly relied on my own accord for years and years. And these issues are just on the fringe edge of what is even discussed in peer reviewed journals. But because I have taken the chance and opportunity to ask for professional help, I feel that it is important for you to see that you don't have to be afraid. You just have to be open and honest about what is going on. It is quite likely that your mileage WILL vary if and when you decide to ask for help, but I encourage you to reach out and take that risk.

I will continue to keep you updated about what happens…

I need to write today. What about? I'm not specifically sure. This morning I woke up from a kind of dream. Describing it as a dream would be a stretch. It was more a kind of deep introspection about the concept of self and what it meant to be me.

I have been anticipating going up on testosterone for a while now. I suppose it is a kind of last ditch effort to see if I can be happy as a mostly normal guy. The emphasis is on the word guy. The last couple of days I have had a tinge of reluctance. It isn't because I doubt that it will work. It is actually because I'm thinking that there is a relatively high chance of it working. But for some reason I wonder if I will lose my sense of self. And if who I am now will be lost to who I will become.

Don't get me wrong. In being bipolar, I have experienced all kinds of extremes. And there is an obvious ocean of difference between being deeply depressed and euphorically manic. I have heard others describe that when they are afflicted with extreme states of mind they don't really feel like they are themselves per se. They may even say something like, "That was someone else. That wasn't me." I have never felt that awkward kind of disconnect. There is no break in my self perception or my self identity. I have no problem separating out my core being from the state of mind that I find myself in. I know most of you have no first hand experience in this area and this point will probably go right on by you, so an analogy is in order. I'm bad at analogies so bear with me. I would describe the situation as being like a coloring book. On each page there is the same outline of you. Your mood is defined by the crayons that fill in the page. The two put together define a complete picture of who you really are at that moment, but throughout time there may be many slight variations of yourself. Often times the variations are not distinguishable from an outsiders perspective. It's only when someone starts drawing outside the lines do people take note and ask what the hell is going on. LoL. end of analogy

The thing is… I know that I have radically changed several times over my life. It isn't that one day I woke up and suddenly I was different. No, it had to do with a large shift and a turn that took months or years to complete.

A week ago I was watching a video that I had made about 8 years ago. It was a video for my other half when he was away for a month in training while he was in the army. The video consisted of short segments shot over a week or more of my daily life. I looked in awe as I watched that video. I could hardly believe what I saw. The person that I watched does not really exist any more. Yes, I am a continuation of that person. But I am so different that I'm hardly recognizable except in form. I am aware of two other major changes in self, but I had failed to recognize that one. It caught me by surprise. I liked the person I saw and yet, I can't be that person again.

I think most people have a problem accepting change at some level. Maybe the greatest shock is that at some point in our youth we realize that we won't live forever. Maybe next in line is the idea that we are the center of the universe. As grand as it might seem, it too disappears in childhood. Change is all around us and even occurring inside of us. I was amazement several years ago when I found out that the human body nearly completely replaces itself over a 7 year time span. I found that disturbing and a total mind fuck. Eastern thought seemed a little more approachable and practical from that point of view. Time marches on and the world and ourselves morph from one moment to the next.

I have played with hormones in the past using depo provera. I know they are powerful and need to be treated with respect. The greatest effects are not had in the days and weeks, but instead on a much longer time frame. Obviously there are physical effects, but I think what is more important are the changes it develops inside.

When I was on depo provera I felt this kind of inner peace and that things were right. A seed of change is inside me. It took a reduction in testosterone to began to nurture that seed to grow. It is dominant now and its future is uncertain.

Possibly in a denialist's thought of desperation, I think that a noticeable increase in testosterone can nurturer the shrub that is stunted in growth and a little sickly looking. I know that I can grow the other seed from scratch by significantly reducing my testosterone, but I would much rather bring this shrub to its full potential by going up on testosterone. Both cannot really exist. One will be shaded from the light. For now, I am stuck on the fence just needing to be pushed one way or the other. Both the shrub and the seed are competing for my soul.

I have often wondered whether I am lucky in life. In some twisted fate, I have grabbed a larger handful of the human experience than others. If the whole point to life is to enrich oneself along the journey, than I'm well on my way to leading a rich meaningful life. Internal conflict can be a potent driver for introspection, contemplation, and gazing across the river of life. Too much of it and it gets in the way of leading *a* life.

For those that have gone forward with castration and/or HRT, do you feel that your actions have allowed you to more fully develop into the person that you have always felt was there? And have these changes caused you to really question your identity and the essence of yourself? Do you identify yourself as the same person that you were before making the life altering change?

The change that altered my life was not one I chose but one that happened none the less. Being without testosterone changed my life, caused me to question not only who I was but what I was and how I related to people. I tried going on Hrt but did not like the person I became when on it. I have grown to like the new me and would would like to have parts of the old me removed. Every now and then I try going back on hormones and the same aggressive, mean, self centered person seems to appear.

feedback,

How long did it take for you to move into acceptance? I can't imagine being forced into low testosterone without choice. I could see it causing a lot of distress.

You seem to dislike the behavior that testosterone brings on in you and yet you go on it from time to time. What desirable traits and characteristics draw you to try it again and again?

Testosterone is a funny thing. I spent many years with a level between 50 and 300, and never even considered making it higher. After I finally reached the point that my non functional testicles were removed, I listened to my GP and went with a more standard dose.

I have always liked myself pretty well, and although I have morphed some over the years, the core of my being is pretty much unchanged in the last 25 years. I did always feel that it was extremely difficult to express myself when others were treading on my feelings. The "normal" level of testosterone has corrected that. I find that now after 2 plus years that its much easier and feels more natural to stand up for myself. As an example, in the past had someone stepped in front of me in a line at a store, I would have just allowed it. These days, I simply open my mouth and tell them of their rudeness, and bad behavior. I find that is a good example of the change. It has affected all my relationships positively, both casual and long term. People now know that can't get one over on me. It has helped make me happier with who I am.

I think for you to really come to terms with who you are, and finally make a decision about which direction you need to head, you must first experience both opposites. You have said that you have used Depo which should make you more submissive, and docile. From all you have said about yourself , in many respects that seems to fit you. Going in the other direction, and increasing testosterone may bring out a facet of your self that you prefer, or you may dislike who you become. Only experience can answer that.

Your interest in castration has a root somewhere, and finding out where it comes from is paramount , before you act to achieve it, and then regret the result. It is a fixation that has many facets and all must be fully understood.

You may find that a higher level of T will make you just who you seek to be, or your partner may tell you that it is a very negative change. Be open , discuss it with your therapist as you proceed, and with your partner and your closest friends as well. You need not get deeply into the whole castration thing, but simply explain the hormone trial and ask those closest to you to report on any change that they detect good or bad. This feedback will help you to decide which is best for you in your personal situation.

Don't be in a hurry either, you are plenty young, and have lots of time to reach a conclusion.

Raymar

It's been 10 or 12 years and it would have been easier for me to accept what I have become if it were not for the fact that I am married and my wife did not understand what I was going through. Also the community in which I live is not very accepting of anything but the norm. I went back on hormones for my wife, so I could be the " man of the house " again but find I much prefer the softer more emotional me. My problem was caused by a medical condition that was not diagnosed and for a long time I struggled with my changing emotions and preferences as far as sex and my body were concerned. You really have to live it to understand all the emotional differences and changes that take place. Maybe its because of my age but I prefer to be without hormones after living both ways. I still find I am attracted to people sexually and enjoy sex with my wife very much. It's just not penetrative sex and yes if I were ever to get together with a man I would be a bottom. I am much more submissive and gentler in my outlook and like it that way.