gareth19 (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:35 pm That of course is merely anecdotal evidence; in controlled studies, groups of patients receiving Freudian therapy did no better than untreated patients. Scientific conclusion: orthodox Freudian psychotherapy is 100% medically ineffective. The idea of Woody Allen or Robin Williams spending a lifetime paying a therapist for vague, leading responses is almost funny, if it were not criminally deceptive. The late Albert Ellis argued thjat psychotherapy should last no more than 6 months; if at the end of that period, the patient wasn't better, he should find a competent therapist. Widely regarded as a crank when he first shone light on the practices of the Freudians, Ellis's cognative therapy that seeks to influence behavior rather than regress to causes and origins is pretty much mainstream thought today.

So you are saying that you have a scientific study to prove to people that they are not experiencing what they are experiencing. Science can only measure what is measurable. The results of therapy have to be judged by the people involved. Cognative therapy is one of the more effective therapies, but it doesn't work for everybody. You keep trying till you find what works for you. The studies you mention were basicly designed to justify insurance companies limiting mental health coverage.

It's like Bokonon said of religion, "Anyone who doesn't understand how a useful religion can be founded on nothing but lies, doesn't understand religion."

Transward

transward (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:56 pm So you are saying that you have a scientific study to prove to people that they are not experiencing what they are experiencing. Science can only measure what is measurable. The results of therapy have to be judged by the people involved. Cognitive therapy is one of the more effective therapies, but it doesn't work for everybody. You keep trying till you find what works for you. The studies you mention were basically designed to justify insurance companies limiting mental health coverage.

It's like Bokonon said of religion, "Anyone who doesn't understand how a useful religion can be founded on nothing but lies, doesn't understand religion."

Transward

Interesting exchange, even more interesting is the comparison of Freudian Psychoanalysis to a religion. B.F. Skinner's greatest contribution was perhaps the focusing on behavior without emphasis on the underlying reasons that may or may not be underlying that behavior.

12 step programs generally shape behavior AND provide ritual that addresses underlying reasons and beliefs. Interestingly enough, some of the precepts of some 12 step programs have predicted scientific breakthroughs in the area of behavior modification.

All in all, behavior IS what MUST be addressed first. Regardless of what you may or may not be thinking, behavior is what causes all of the problems for both individuals AND society. If we can somehow change behavior and make people productive and adhere to the rules of society who cares what people are thinking?

A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:15 am Interesting exchange, even more interesting is the comparison of Freudian Psychoanalysis to a religion. B.F. Skinner's greatest contribution was perhaps the focusing on behavior without emphasis on the underlying reasons that may or may not be underlying that behavior.

12 step programs generally shape behavior AND provide ritual that addresses underlying reasons and beliefs. Interestingly enough, some of the precepts of some 12 step programs have predicted scientific breakthroughs in the area of behavior modification.

All in all, behavior IS what MUST be addressed first. Regardless of what you may or may not be thinking, behavior is what causes all of the problems for both individuals AND society. If we can somehow change behavior and make people productive and adhere to the rules of society who cares what people are thinking?

The comparison to religion is apt because the problems that therapy address were in previous centuries considered spiritual questions, self worth, our purpose in the world, melancholy and so forth, and the function of the therapist was filled by the clergy. Also similar is the fact that mutually contradictory belief systems (BS as Robert Anton Wilson calls them, pun totally intended) all seem to work for some people and not for others.

Your citing 12 step programs is interesting, because, while the program is to change behavior, the first step is not one of changing behavior, but of belief, surrendering yourself to a higher power.

There seems to be in all people the need to surrender yourself to a higher power. For centuries that has kept the religions going strong. Now with so few people seriously believing in God, everyone is looking for a good top.

Transward

We all had a "good top" when we were babies. Too much of life is governed by people's longing for infancy.

bobover3 (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:56 pm We all had a "good top" when we were babies. Too much of life is governed by people's longing for infancy.

Bobover,

Forgive me for saying this, but your comments are correct because you are fairly normal... (whatever that is...) But lots of people today require guidance, certainly not you and me, the way that we have went at it, but those who are easily influenced NEED that kind of support system.

It is why people can be led to do things that seem incredible...and their actions leave the you's and the me's and our ilk in utter astounded questioning amazement...

...however there IS no real mystery except why so many followers are easily influenced when they should know how to reason for themselves and believe in what they reason...

...but let us NOT go there again, O.K.?

"Fairly normal"!?!? Why I'll have you know there isn't a normal bone in my body!

transward (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:56 pm So you are saying that you have a scientific study to prove to people that they are not experiencing what they are experiencing. Science can only measure what is measurable. The results of therapy have to be judged by the people involved. Cognative therapy is one of the more effective therapies, but it doesn't work for everybody. You keep trying till you find what works for you. The studies you mention were basicly designed to justify insurance companies limiting mental health coverage.

It's like Bokonon said of religion, "Anyone who doesn't understand how a useful religion can be founded on nothing but lies, doesn't understand religion."

Transward

No, I'm saying that a study from the 70s showed that

gareth19 (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:35 pm patients receiving Freudian therapy did no better than untreated patients.

People may believe that rubbing yak butter on it will make their penises bigger, but belief is not experience or effect. And how people feel about yak butter should not be the criterion by which its efficaciousness is judged. You must use a tapemeasure for that.

You can scratch a rash and believe that it feels better (momentarily) but the fact that you keep scratching shows that it didn't do any real good. The fact that Woody Allen is like 60 now and still seeing a shrink suggests as the study claims, the shrink hasn't really done him any good.

If your standard is simply that pouring out their anxieties, resentments, or unfullfilled desires at $100/hr makes people feel good then Freudian therapy is right up there with Coke and Stoli, but I don't really want to be on the freeway with people who have been "helped" in that way.

bobover3 (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:27 pm "Fairly normal"!?!? Why I'll have you know there isn't a normal bone in my body!

...from the "LKs" of that AVATAR their is NOT a "normal" BONER in your body, either...

Alas! If only life were like my avatar! Should I ever have a boner like that, it would truly be extraordinary, if not actually miraculous. Should this miracle ever occur, I would renounce my atheism.

bobover3 (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:21 pm Alas! If only life were like my avatar! Should I ever have a boner like that, it would truly be extraordinary, if not actually miraculous. Should this miracle ever occur, I would renounce my atheism.

The Viagra commercial says, "...for erections lasting over four hours, seek medical treatment..."

HELL!

I'd be seeking a BUS LOAD of STRIPPERS...!