Sweetpickle (imported) wrote: Mon May 17, 2010 7:00 pm I thought liloleme came across as too much of a stereotype.

I think there are conservatives who do not toe the catholic

church line of "no abortion ever" and "gay is a sin".

There are a lot of people who are fiscal conservatives but

social progressives.

It seems as if those who used to be "conservative" have

had their politics made a laughing stock by the likes of

Sarah, Rush, Glen and a host of other publicity seekers.

How true, you just nailed me. fiscal conservative, social progressive, was a Republican, now a good solid Democrat. I did not leave the Republican party, it left me, there will be more and more of us soon, John McCain comes to mind.

River

Dave (imported) wrote: Mon May 17, 2010 9:01 pm The Amish are as conservative as anyone can get and that's the true meaning of the word -- they conserve the old lifestyle -- and there is no question that they are Christians.

That they are in every way, remember a couple years ago when a gunman killed several of there kids, they did the Christian thing right away, they forgave him.

River

bobover3 (imported) wrote: Mon May 17, 2010 9:54 pm As an atheist who believes Christianity has been more of a bane than a boon to suffering humanity, I welcome as high praise the thought that Christianity and conservatism are incompatible.

It's no accident that Marx's view of commerce was indistinguishable from that of the medieval Fathers of the Church. It's also no accident that Christianity is waning everywhere but in South America and Africa, where the poor multitudes embrace the idea that poverty is a sign of virtue, and that "there'll be pie in the sky by and by."

Let's keep this discussion on relatively flat ground...

As an atheist you are more in line with Marx and his ideas than the Catholic Church. Marx called religion the "opiate of the people" and all communism denied the existence of an almighty being.

The current crop of pedophiles besmirching the Catholic Church should not be conflated with the (what you would call) "left-wing, bleeding heart do-gooder" church. The two are unrelated unless you want to score cheap points to avoid a reasonable discussion.

The "left wing" or compassionate church that you see is based on the words of Jesus in the new testament and not the vengeful God of the old testament. The movement towards compassionate treatment of citizens under the reign of tyrants is the exact opposite of Marx. It comes from the Sermon on the Mount and this nationalized form of Christianity is very popular in South America where tyrants ruled and the masses were oppressed. It is the revolution that Marx could not imagine and feared.

The medieval Church was overturned in the Enlightenment and the industrial revolutions of Europe and the United States. Marx didn't feel that influence because Russia remained a despotic regime up until the revolution in 1914. It was Russian misfortune to revolt at the time when Marx's ideas overtook and subsumed the revolution. Thus what in the US and France and the rest of Europe changed the Monarchical systems into equal justice, individual rights and freedom, the Russian revolution turned back to the medievalism of Marx and Engels.

The Right Wing Church mostly follows the Old Testament and sets (like the Almighty did in Leviticus) laws and strictures and commandments for the faithful to follow. I feel this was mostly Luther and Calvin and the whole Protestant Reformation.

Now both views inside the Church are valid but also, both views are not compatible with Marxist atheistic communism. Marx suppressed the rights of individuals over the rights of the commune or whole or state. Neither of the two branches of the Church suppress the rights of their members to live free.

There is much that one can say is wrong with organized religion but do not conflate it with atheistic communism. It just doesn't work.

A better question might be,

can a Christian, be a Christian

All the "Christians" especially the Roman Catholics in my experience are a gang of sinister, selfish pigs. (no icon, I mean it)

On the other side, Mormons I have known have been some of the most outstanding honest folk one could hope for.

Of course no group is 100% but, this is just a reflection of my experience.

Like persons who call for morality, persons who scream for Christianity are the most suspect in my experience.

Moi

Spiritualist, I was drafted - I never signed up

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html

In other words.. absolutely, seeing as how Jesus was talking about the Sun and stars as

the biggest atoms/nucleus and the Earth as an enormous electron.. and the connection/dependence between them is the Love that we ARE, as he's saying the Heavenly Father - Earthly Mother prayer=)

Dave (imported) wrote: Tue May 18, 2010 5:29 am Let's keep this discussion on relatively flat ground...

The medieval Church was overturned in the Enlightenment and the industrial revolutions of Europe and the United States. Marx didn't feel that influence because Russia remained a despotic regime up until the revolution in 1914. It was Russian misfortune to revolt at the time when Marx's ideas overtook and subsumed the revolution. Thus what in the US and France and the rest of Europe changed the Monarchical systems into equal justice, individual rights and freedom, the Russian revolution turned back to the medievalism of Marx and Engels.

Karl Marx was a German, who died in 1883. As far as I know, he never visited Russia. He was a relatively obscure figure in his lifetime, whose ideas only begun to exert a major influence on worker's movements after his death.

Slammr (imported) wrote: Tue May 18, 2010 1:15 pm Karl Marx was a German, who died in 1883. As far as I know, he never visited Russia. He was a relatively obscure figure in his lifetime, whose ideas only begun to exert a major influence on worker's movements after his death.

Well he didn't have to survive beyond "The Communist Manifesto." Marx died in 1883 after having composed three of the five volumes of Das Capital (his critique of capitalism) and his coauthor/translator Engels lived until 1895.

And you shouldn't forget that the 1905 Russian Revolution set the stage for the 1917-21 Revolution after WW1.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

The Communist Manifesto was first published (in German) in London by a group of German political refugees in 1848. It was also serialised at around the same time in a German-language London newspaper, the Deutsche Londoner Zeitung.[6] The first English translation was produced by Helen Macfarlane in 1850. The Manifesto went through a number of editions from 1872 to 1890; notable new prefaces were written by Marx and Engels for the 1872 German edition, the 1882 Russian edition, the 1883 French edition, and the 1888 English edition. This edition, translated by Samuel Moore with the assistance of Engels, has been the most commonly used English text since.

I added this after a few minutes:

You might say that the Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels was the most influential political document since (quite possibly) the Magna Carta. However, when the USSR fell in 1989, the case can be made that the US Constitution is now the most influential political document since the Magna Carta. After all, Communism failed as a political system and capitalist republics like the USA have survived beyond any communist state. That includes China since it is moving into some hybrid form of capitalism with great vigor and intent.

Slammr, Dave et al

How did a serious discussion on Christianity devolve into - - - ?

But, if you must bring in economic theory to this thread,

look to the original economic system of the Mormon Church for a good one.

Or the economic system of the early ancient Christian communities.

Or what would be a 21st Century Christian economic system.

Just some suggestions before we hear from the regulars about the Republicans and Democrats and Baby Bush and Obama deification, blah blah, the usual posts if y'know what I mean that find their way into all opinion topics.

So what is a 21st Century Christian anyways? Or a conservative one.

In the 19th Century it was William Jennings Bryan, Conservative Christian and a populist too.

Moi

trying to keep it real

moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue May 18, 2010 4:33 pm Slammr, Dave et al

How did a serious discussion on Christianity devolve into - - - ?

...

Because Bobover decided to equate Marxism with Medieval Christianity and score cheap points that the current Catholic Church in South America and Africa is liberal and communist and progressive. It was his backdoor way of preaching the make believe "evils" of progressive or liberal thought.

Being a left-wing Catholic, I resent that. It's wrong on so many levels -- philosophical, historical and (big word warning) eschatologically. Yeah, that too.

You see, the progressive Church in South America took the side of the peasants against the landed elites. That puts it at complete odds with any communal socialism (communism) which says no one owns anything. The Church stands for private ownership against the oligarchs in South America and that is a very progressive or liberal idea. This is the New Testament, Sermon on the Mount brand of Catholicism. As conservative as the Church in Rome is, there are branches that stand with the ideals in the constitution of Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (as much as the French Revolution's liberty, equality, fraternity)... One one side of the Nave (I said nave not knave) are the very liberal, tree hugging, kumbaya parishioners and on the other side of the Nave are the very conservative, anti sex, anti abortion, strict behavior parishioners.

They are all Christians -- a Christian being one who believes the teachings of Jesus the Christ and of the three great truths - Christ died, Christ rose from the dead, and Christ will come again. Whatever criticism I have of the Papacy in Rome or with Falwell or Billy Graham or Martin Luther or the Mormons, or the Orthodox Church, we all agree on those three great truths. It binds the Churches as one.

(much like that Ring that Tolkein invented and called Precious...)

moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue May 18, 2010 11:22 am A better question might be,

can a Christian, be a Christian

All the "Christians" especially the Roman Catholics in my experience are a gang of sinister, selfish pigs. (no icon, I mean it)

On the other side, Mormons I have known have been some of the most outstanding honest folk one could hope for.

Of course no group is 100% but, this is just a reflection of my experience.

Like persons who call for morality, persons who scream for Christianity are the most suspect in my experience.

Moi

Spiritualist, I was drafted - I never signed up

Interesting. My experiences are the opposite. The funding for about 70 percent of the feeding programs and the housing assistance in this city goes through Catholic Community Services or the Salvation Army, and a large part of my experiences with the Mormons involve trans children, kicked out and disowned by self righteous Mormon parents. Your mileage may vary.

Transward