Right age? This is a question that does not have numerical answer.

Answer could be found with the help of theory of relativity... There is no fixed points in the world. No fixed ages. There is always a background we are dependant on. Our thoughts, values and acts are dependant on. Cultural background, beliefs, knowledge, desire, etc.

I could say it is kinda provocative question, regarding western society beliefs, values and culture. So, be careful with answers!

I think that there shouldn't be an age limit, tbh. I mean I'm not saying a 3 yr old should make the decision, what if the kid is say 10 or 12? Old enough to actually think about and decide whether or not they would be happy with it.

Also to answer the question of what reason could it be, I mean for person reasons (i.e. feel like they aren't supposed to be a boy, or just doesn't want to go through puberty).

moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:43 pm The legendary boy was being circumsized with a cautery tool

that is a major No No

Well the cautery tool malfunctioned and his penis was fried, necessitating amputation. Then to try make things more, right, the doctors recommended castration and raising him as a girl. That did not go right from the first moment his mother, put the hardly one year old in a dress.

Years later the poor kid had to gesture suicide if "they" would not leave him alone I think when they were going to do the surgery to make him, female.

He has appeared on the talk show circuit.

I watched a documentary on PBS about one of the first cases in which a boy was given a sex change because of a botched circumcision. I watched the program many years ago and while my memory is good, it is not perfect so I might have some of the details wrong.

This is what I remember: Twin boys who were about 11 months old were circumcised. One of them lost his penis. A doctor decided to convert him into a girl. He was castrated and had a vagina made. He was raised as a girl. The results were terrible. The doctor published a medical journal article in which he said that the results were very good. Because of this article, other boys were converted into pseudo-girls.

The boy who was converted found out when he was a young adult. He stopped taking estrogen and started testosterone. He was about six inches shorter than his twin brother. He planned to have surgery to restore his penis. A few years later he killed himself.

His name was David Reimerhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/background/reimer

What a sad story of mis-guided medicine.

I hope the doctor who caused the damaged penis was properly chastised -- that was an unfortunate and preventable accident.

I hope the doctor who told the family to raise him as a girl and removed his testicles lost his license and was ostracized -- he deserves that and worse.

We've had this discussion before, but I think that thread was lost in the 'great crash' some time ago.

My thoughts on the matter are this: No minor is capable of making such a life-altering decision on his/her own, in regards to MTE or MTF gender change. Nor with any kind of genital alteration. They simply do not have those cognitive processes. Treatment with something like lupron, used to delay puberty in some TG cases, is fine so long as it is reversible. Perhaps Jesus can provide us with info on this practice?

My only concession on this would be perhaps age 16, at the soonest, and then only if the person had lived in the different gender role for a long time and fully identified with it.

More discussion? And let's not delve into the fantasy aspects of it HERE. That's what the FICTION archive is for. Let's keep it in a rational, educated debate format.

Thank you.

Paolo wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:53 pm We've had this discussion before, but I think that thread was lost in the 'great crash' some time ago.

My thoughts on the matter are this: No minor is capable of making such a life-altering decision on his/her own, in regards to MTE or MTF gender change. Nor with any kind of genital alteration. They simply do not have those cognitive processes. Treatment with something like lupron, used to delay puberty in some TG cases, is fine so long as it is reversible. Perhaps Jesus can provide us with info on this practice?

My only concession on this would be perhaps age 16, at the soonest, and then only if the person had lived in the different gender role for a long time and fully identified with it.

More discussion? And let's not delve into the fantasy aspects of it HERE. That's what the FICTION archive is for. Let's keep it in a rational, educated debate format.

Thank you.

How about voice training and a youths decision to become a castrato?

Would those qualify as appropriate circumstances with all the fluff of psychiatric reviews, etc.

Moi

No.

If you find a real one, call Simon Cowell and get him a recording contract.

This is a question that has been asked several times here on the Archive, usually with long and very thoughtful discussion of the many issues involved. At one point I was certain that I had the right answer. I’m now far less certain, and I’m sure that my earlier response was wrong.

I am actually the one who began the discussion on two occasions by posting what I termed an “ethical dilemma” about the issue. The first time was in response to a post by A-1. That time there were 75, mostly very thoughtful, responses before the Archive was taken down by a hacker and the thread was lost. In response to a thread begun by Vesal_mas, which also seems to have since disappeared, Paolo asked me to again post the ethical dilemma to see what responses it got. It’s still available (at least until the next system crash) as Evangelical Church of the Lambs of Christ (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4348), though it had only a few responses the second time around.

The original posting led to a general consensus that 25 was the minimum age that should be considered.

Since then, I have met and talked with many more members of the Eunuch Archive community. I have read the responses to the first and second survey that were posted on the Archive (just under 1000 responses to the first survey and about 3000 to the second). I have read extensively in the related academic and medical literature and spoken with many of the experts in the field. I now know that the answer is far more complex than I ever thought it might be.

Today, rather than starting with age, I would begin by considering the REASON that someone wanted castration. There are many reasons, with different levels of validity, different ages of onset, and different ideal ages for castration (if that is a proper option at all).

I would argue that intensive psychological counseling is necessary in order to determine the reasons and, if justified, provide the necessary cover of a second opinion for any surgeon.

Of those who answered the surveys and provided sufficient information for us to determine their reasoning, about one-third appear to have a Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). This is not yet well described in the medical literature, though it is beginning to be of more interest. Where it does appear, it is usually described in terms of someone “knowing” that a lateral appendage (hand, arm, foot, leg) does not belong. There is extreme distress until the appendage is removed. Neither psychiatric nor chemical treatment seems to work. Only the removal of the offending part provides a “cure” for this disorder. And it does provide a “cure” as the person almost never goes on to want another part removed. Most of those described in the literature with BIID are well-educated and successful in their fields.

The next revision of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (the DSM-V) is likely to include BIID and to argue that surgery is justified after appropriate counseling.

My reading of the literature and of the survey results and my conversations with some of the “experts” on BIID lead me to suspect that BIID effecting the genitals is more common than that affecting the lateral appendages that are most of what is currently in the medical literature.

The age of onset of BIID is frequently in early childhood – six or seven years of age is common. But, if a boy wants his testicles removed because of BIID, he still wants to grow up to be a man – definitely male, just without those offensive parts. After castration, he would still want testosterone.

Since the testicles produce more than JUST testosterone, I would think that he should be counseled to wait until full maturity, but with assurance that surgery is possible at that point.

[Here I would like to have some input from Archive members with BIID as to their thoughts about demanding that someone wait, and if so, for how long. At what age did YOU first want your testicles removed? How did you feel about waiting? Should someone who is not yet 18 (or 25) have to wait? Why? Why not?]

I’ll wait for some response to this first section before continuing with other reasons for wanting castration and the appropriate minimum ages.

I didnt really want them removed until puberty had started, but i sure would not have minded if they were removed at that point. It would have saved me years of frustration. I would agree that i always still wanted to be male, and never had or have had desires to femanize or loose my penis. But as I have aged I am now also in favor of having low testoserone and having been on siterone for 2 years think that having stopped T at puberty would also have been a good thing for me.