Hash (imported) wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:46 am I'm sorry, but Caster Semenya is technically a man.

Technically? How? What evidence? Very conjectural and conclusive on your part, no?

First, A great article Jesus, thank you.

As for the Olympics, this was to be competition between amateurs, there are no amateurs in the Olympics today. Some try to hid that fact but when an athlete gets corporation sponsorship in the 6 figures it becomes who can lie cheat and steal there way to fame and more important fortune. It is a shame and a dishonor to the ideals of what the Olympics was meant to be.

River

I think River is maybe being too cynical about well sponsored athletes lieing, stealing and cheating their way to "success" in the Olympics. It is more that they can embrace the newest of technologies to give them every possible advantage. I remember as a kid, the hassles they had with fiberglass poles for pole vaulting. Now there are super trick swimsuits, clap skates for speed skaters, carbon fiber sticks for hockey players, compare modern running shoes to those from years ago, form fitting suits in many speed related sports, etc. Is it cheating to have the latest swimsuit or is a problem with the Olympic Committee that they lack the vision to make things "equal" by mandating that everyone wear an official Olympic swimsuit?

BTW, what is an amateur? Is it simply a guy who has a job and trains after work at his sport? You certainly wouldn't include a sponsored athlete who doesn't have to work and can train full time, do you? Well how about the guy who has a nice trust fund and can train full time and hire trainers, etc? Amateur is one of thos words like "stock" car racing which sounds nice in the abstract but is far more difficult to define in real world situations.

"This is a test."

"This is only a teste."

"This is a testicle from the emergency broadcastration system"

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPP........................ ......................BBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP................... ...............BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP.

"This was a testicle from the emergent broadcastration system."

"If this had been a real emergency you would have been castrated, or soon will be."

"For those of you already castrated, huh...that was only a test, but thank you for participating, your country and goverment loves you. Now go out and get a job, show 'em what were made of, and yes pay those taxes, don't forget about your taxes. You live in the best country in the world and have a duty to pay for all the services you recieved and your wonderful treatment. Yes America treats you well indeed."

Viva la revolution...:-\

chilli-

clysmaniac (imported) wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:02 am BTW, what is an amateur? Is it simply a guy who has a job and trains after work at his sport? You certainly wouldn't include a sponsored athlete who doesn't have to work and can train full time, do you? Well how about the guy who has a nice trust fund and can train full time and hire trainers, etc? Amateur is one of thos words like "stock" car racing which sounds nice in the abstract but is far more difficult to define in real world situations.

I think that any definition of the word would exclude NBA/NHL players.

chilliwilli (imported) wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:03 am "This was a testicle from the emergency broadcastration system.

"

What has that got to do with the thread?

Anyway, back our regularly scheduled bickering...

I'm not sure what actual standards are in place, but if there is an established guideline as to what constitutes a male/female in professional segregated sports, then athletes must conform to it.

Perhaps ALL athletes be tested before admittance to the event to make sure they fit the sex they intend to compete against, as well as to look for performance/illegal drugs. This, at least, can eliminate questionable athletes from winning events and setting records only to then strip them of their prize, dignity, and gender after the controversy explodes.

It would be nice to have co-ed competition, but there are basic substantial biological differences between the sexes that generally gives males the competitive edge in most sports. Perhaps there should be a co-ed category as well?

On the matter of improved sportswear/technology, I think there should be standard uniforms and equipment, or at least very strict guidelines.

Having one athlete using basic, standard runners against one who is wearing spring loaded, nitro-enhanced booster rockets on their feet is not an equal race track.

The idea of competitive sports, especially the Olympics, is find the fastest/strongest/best ATHLETE, to test the HUMAN capacity. I sometimes think that sports technology takes too much of the human part out of the equation.

...

Richard_Less (imported) wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:03 pm Perhaps ALL athletes be tested before admittance to the event to make sure they fit the sex they intend to compete against, ...

In the past few years there was a HUGE and frantic movement to prevent all those high school athletes from using steroids and several school districts (indeed, whole states) mandated testing for steroids. Steroids was to be raging, rampant and widespread in our high schools. Our children were being beefed up by all sorts of steroidal drugs sure to damage their futures for short term muscular gains. Hysteria reigned supreme.

And guess what, our kids turned out to be good kids. Only a fraction of a percent used steroids and that has proven the case in most areas that actually did the testing. The percent is so low that most areas are looking to save the money and stop the testing. I pity the kids whose parents are so quick to believe them wrong.

this gal is being tested because she improved far beyond anyone else and she did it in a short time. She's not new to the track just this year. She has a record and suddenly, she runs faster (by seconds, not fractional seconds) than her competitors.

That's usually a sign of something not quite right. The testing is entirely proper and appropriate.

That's how they got the several cyclists in the Tour De France and other cycling races in Europe. They pick the top performers and test them. They don't pick the guy who comes in last. It's the champions who pass the test day after day and race after race who deserve a break.

I think if you want to compete against women, you should be a woman. ALL others play as men with no questions asked (except for doping) for Olympics and world records. If you want to compete in the "female" division and not compete against the BRUTES then you can submit to testing if questioned. I'm sure most natural females would be happy with that protection.

As far as pro sports, there should only be one league and that is "the best". If they want to smoke crack and run a T-drip, go for it.

>>Do I say "The plot thickens" or nothing at all.

>>It seems the lady isn't a lady like any other lady...

>>

Caster Semenya, forced to take gender test, is a woman ... and a man

BY Oren Yaniv

DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Thursday, September 10th 2009, 1:50 PM

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2 ... z0QkNhQzAL

Tests show that controversial runner Caster Semenya is a woman ...and a man!

The 18-year-old South African champ has no womb or ovaries and her testosterone levels are more than three times higher than those of a normal female, according to reports.

The tests, ordered by The International Association of Athletics Federations after Semenya's 800-meter victory in the World Championships, determined she's a hermaphrodite - having both male and female organs.

Semenya could be stripped of the gold medal she won in Berlin last month and her competitive future is in limbo, according to Australia's Daily Telegraph.

The athletics governing body is also expected to advise her to have surgery to fix the potentially deadly condition, the paper reported. The IAAF would not comment on the results that have yet to be released.

According to a source with knowledge of the IAAF tests, Semenya has internal testes - the male sexual organs that produce testosterone.

Testosterone is a hormone responsible for building muscles and for producing body hair and a deep voice.

Confirmation of the test results is sure to stoke the controversy that erupted after the university student's sensational track triumph.

She has been embraced in her home country - where she was declared "our girl" - and appeared on a magazine cover after a feminine makeover.

"God made me the way I am and I accept myself. I am who I am and I'm proud of myself," she told You Magazine, which ran a photo spread.

"I don't want to talk about the tests. I'm not even thinking about them."

[email protected]

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2 ... z0QkNcEoKl

Without more medical information than I’ve been able to find, I can only guess that Caster Semenya has Androgen insensitivity syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_i ... y_syndrome). Because AIS frequently goes undiagnosed – at the extremes of it’s expression it produces males who are infertile or “biological males” whose physical appearance is hyperfeminine – we can only guess that it occurs about one in 20,000 births. AIS refers to any one of several genetic mutations carried on the X chromosome that limits the bodies ability to use testosterone. Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) has been discovered in some women when they discover that they are unable to have children and get tested for their infertility. Only then do they discover that they are biologically male.

Here are a couple of long quotations from an AIS support site:

Forms of AIS

There are two forms; a complete form (CAIS) where the tissues are completely insensitive to androgens, and a partial or incomplete form (PAIS) where the tissues are in/sensitive to varying extents forming a spectrum of genital appearances. At the CAIS end of the spectrum the external genitalia are completely female and the sex of rearing is invariably female. In PAIS, the outward genital appearance can lie anywhere along a continuum from completely female, through mixed male/female, to completely male…. Slight androgen insensitivity may contribute to infertility in some otherwise normal men.

<<snip>>

Effects (CAIS)

Even in the complete form there will be no ovaries, Fallopian tubes or uterus, and the vagina will be blind-ending and possibly short or absent. The undescended testes can result in an inguinal (groin) hernia in infancy and this is when the condition may come to light in an apparently female child (~50% of cases). Otherwise CAIS may not be discovered until puberty as a result of failure to menstruate. Female pubertal development occurs, because the testes produce some oestrogen, but there will be no menstruation and no possibility of conceiving/bearing children…. The older literature sometimes states that girls with AIS are often tall, that the body form is ‘voluptuously female’, i.e. with very adequate breast development, and that the skin maintains a good condition, not being prone to acne (which is linked to the action of male hormones). Many AIS women have been photographers’ models.

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome 
Support Group (AISSG) (http://www.aissg.org/)