Kristoff,

Have you ever dealt with the HB people. I have, it wasn’t an experience I would like to repeat. I have never met such an arrogant, power mad, bunch of egocentric, sexually repressed, megalomaniacs, in my life. If you don’t mind handing over total control of your life to some jackass psychologist that can’t even run his own life, be my guest. Most of the psychologists I have worked with became shrinks not because they wanted to cure others, but because they wanted to cure themselves. Since being dead honest with ones self is one of the most difficult things in the world to do they always fail at self help. Their attempts to help others are a reflection of this miserable state. I have had over 10,000 hours of group and individual therapy to back up what I am saying.

Being a TS I experienced first hand the lame excuse they offer up as therapy. There are a few shrinks out there that honestly do want to help. They are usually in private practice. They are few and far between and hard to find. I have run across a precious few of the angels of mercy. If you can manage to find one of these people they would be worth working with. Good luck.

The real losers and the ones to watch out for are the ones that work for medical universities and the state. They are in this business for the money and for research value. They need guinea pigs. They don’t want you to leave the program ever because that would mess up their research paper. You and your problem are irrelevant, research is important, getting that PhD is important, big bucks are important, you are a lab rat. They don’t care if it’s Medicaid or personal finances paying the bills, as long as they are filling the coffers. They will tell you therapy will last 1 year and 8 years later they are still telling you that same old line. Greed is their motivation. Only when you threaten to leave or go public will they submit to granting the patients wishes. No one should be subjected to this kind of treatment.

I have been abused by Christian therapists working for the state, I have been abused by idiots working for Universities that didn’t have a clue about TS issues. Why should I pay to educate a therapist?

I have had more than enough abuse. Screw HB and their entire lot. Nothing but a bunch of dried up, anal retentive, old men. If we intend to create a standard I suggest “WE” create the standard, not a bunch of dried up old men. Their interests will never equal ours; their agenda will never match ours. Don’t hand over control to a bunch of jackasses who WILL put their own interests ahead of their patients.

I agree we may need a standard to ever get castration to be an option for sexual/asexual preference but we better be damn careful about who we put in the drivers seat.

I see a lot of merit in what Bernadette is saying. Listen to some of us that have been there.

FlatBagger (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:00 am Kristoff,

Have you ever dealt with the HB people. I have, it wasn’t an experience I would like to repeat. I have never met such an arrogant, power mad, bunch of egocentric, sexually repressed, megalomaniacs, in my life. If you don’t mind handing over total control of your life to some jackass psychologist that can’t even run his own life, be my guest. Most of the psychologists I have worked with became shrinks not because they wanted to cure others, but because they wanted to cure themselves. Since being dead honest with ones self is one of the most difficult things in the world to do they always fail at self help. Their attempts to help others are a reflection of this miserable state. I have had over 10,000 hours of group and individual therapy to back up what I am saying.

Being a TS I experienced first hand the lame excuse they offer up as therapy. There are a few shrinks out there that honestly do want to help. They are usually in private practice. They are few and far between and hard to find. I have run across a precious few of the angels of mercy. If you can manage to find one of these people they would be worth working with. Good luck.

The real losers and the ones to watch out for are the ones that work for medical universities and the state. They are in this business for the money and for research value. They need guinea pigs. They don’t want you to leave the program ever because that would mess up their research paper. You and your problem are irrelevant, research is important, getting that PhD is important, big bucks are important, you are a lab rat. They don’t care if it’s Medicaid or personal finances paying the bills, as long as they are filling the coffers. They will tell you therapy will last 1 year and 8 years later they are still telling you that same old line. Greed is their motivation. Only when you threaten to leave or go public will they submit to granting the patients wishes. No one should be subjected to this kind of treatment.

I have been abused by Christian therapists working for the state, I have been abused by idiots working for Universities that didn’t have a clue about TS issues. Why should I pay to educate a therapist?

I have had more than enough abuse. Screw HB and their entire lot. Nothing but a bunch of dried up, anal retentive, old men. If we intend to create a standard I suggest “WE” create the standard, not a bunch of dried up old men. Their interests will never equal ours; their agenda will never match ours. Don’t hand over control to a bunch of jackasses who WILL put their own interests ahead of their patients.

I agree we may need a standard to ever get castration to be an option for sexual/asexual preference but we better be damn careful about who we put in the drivers seat.

I see a lot of merit in what Bernadette is saying. Listen to some of us that have been there.

You all are missing the point, I am not advocating for any standard. I am asking what should folks do to be credible to get the help that they are wanting. Instead I get a lot of anti-HB. That is all well and good, and good points made. I used them as a jumping off place. This thread is not about being anti-HB. It is about being pro-M2E.

Kristoff

Quote:

“

kristoff wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:47 pm The same can be said of M2F transgender women – there are many here, and they have lots of cumulative experience with HBSOC – perhaps they can shine some light here. I am not sure, but I believe we have one or two members that are F2M; perhaps they can help.

”

You asked, we answered. I hope we have enlightened. All I am saying is be damn careful about who you choose to put in the drivers seat when it comes to creating a ‘definition’. The HB standards of care are very narrow and defined. If you don’t fit exactly in the mold they will reject you and effectively stop your transition. Make sure the “standard” isn’t so narrow that those desiring castration are not denied on some lame technicality. When we first came up with the HB standard of care we in the T community thought it would be a boon to TS’s nation wide. We had no idea of what a bureaucratic nightmare it would turn into. Old saying; Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

Well a couple of things, first, having survived two cancers, I don't believe giving yourself cancer is an option. Cancer controls you not the other way around.

Second, If I wanted to be a woman, and have SRS, I could do that, not saying its easy but can be done. I identify with eunuchs, well one because I am one and two they are the closes to where I want to be, which is none male, no male genitals, yep, no dick or balls. Now I can probable get my balls removed but not a chance in hell of getting a penectomy.

I agree that we somehow need to have a sliding scale of transgender, not just one or the other. I understand your negative opinion of therapist but who or how do you make sure someone like me is of "sound" mind. I went to a therapist myself just to make sure for myself that I was not a nut-so. \\

Pauline

BernadetteTS (imported) wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:56 pm I have given this a lot of thought as it applies to transsexuality. The group /TSDoItYourselfHormones/ has over 10,000 members and probably 100,000 posts if you add in the previous versions of the group. A good sociologist could use the info in the archives to create a support and care protocol rather than a gatekeeper/make it so difficult procedure that anyone who survives it won't sue us system. It has to be something than a one size fits all program.

If I was designing a TS system it would include the following; There would be a point system based on age. Say 100 points up to age 20 then decreasing 2 points per year of age. A young person has a lot to lose if they make a mistake. An older person has already made life decisions like career, military service, marriage, children. There are fewer consequences to life as people age.

Take the power away from the therapists to grant or deny care. Let therapists do what they were trained to do. They can help the person sort out their thoughts. They can support them. They can direct them to where they can get care but can not be the gatekeeper.

Create a way to start in secret. This could be as simple as a website where the TS can create an account and get a case number. Then the TS downloads a pdf form sort of like a pilot's log book. All the elements involved in transition are given a point value. When the TS has enough points, they can give it to an MD or surgeon for HRT or SRS. Things like living full time, working as a female in the case of M2F TS, electrolysis, months on hormones, counseling with a therapist, outing yourself to family, etc all have a point value. If the TS is competent and used to being in charge of thier own life, the might not need any couseling. If the TS is a 6' 4" former football lineman who couldn't pass for female in a dark basement at night with the lights off, they could could build up enough points by counseling and HRT. Don't force the unpassable to endure living as a man in a dress if they can not do it. This does not mean they can not be content haveing a sex change and being satisified with as much femization as they can achieve that remains hidden while living a male lifestyle. The TS gets to decide where their money is best spent.

Don't use therapists as gatekeepers who line their pockets by requiring thousands of dollars of office visits over years. A court can order a competency hearing that can be completed in a matter of hours. Take the TS logbook to a judge and it allows the judge to order a competency hearing. If necessary to include an artificial delay, then require a second competency hearing 6 months or a year later. But if the person passes both hearings, they are competent to make the decision to have surgery. The decision is left to a judge who has no economic interest in the outcome rather than a therapist who is earning a living by requiring the TS to make office visit after visit.

Remove all stereotypes from outcomes. Imagine it this way, create a graph. The vertical scale is lifestyle. The horizontal scale is physical change. The bottom left corner is male. The upper right corner is female. John Wayne, in a monster truck, tailgating before a football game, with his hunting dogs and beer would be stereotypically in the botton left corner. A 1950's sitcom stay at home mom of 2 children, living in the suburbs where she puts on pearls and high heals to vacuum the carpet is in the upper right hand corner. The current SOC requires that the TS travel from the bottom left corner straight up to the left upper corner, man in a dress zone that crossdressers visit on a temporary basis, and live as a man in a dress for 6 months or a year before they are granted access to hormones that allow them to move to the right on the graph. The /TSDIY/ support group shows that most leave their current lifestyle unaffected and begin moving to the right on the scale first. When their body is feminized to some extent, there is much less resistance when they decide to out themselves and move upwards on the scale. Instead of the social resistance TS experience when recognized as a man in a dress, society encourages those with a female body to live a female lifestyle. Transition is easy rather than an endurance test. Lifestyle elements could be written into the graph depending on whether they are primarily male/female or enjoyed by either gender. The TS could circle the elements they want to keep from their male life and what they want to add to their transistioned life. This keeps the therapist from requiring them to abandon wholesale all elements of their male life and adopting female elements whether the TS really wanted to do those things or not. There is a lot more room for personal fulfillment rather than the one size fits all, stereotypical outcome requirements under the current system.

I do not know enough about eunch views, motivations and lifestyles to define a system of care and support. For some eunuchs I have read about it seems to have a basis in self identity. In others it is lifestyle driven. Some seem to want to control their own bodies that are out of control the way nature designed them. Others are driven by submissiveness, sacrifice and service. So don't create a system that requires those seeking access to care to fit into the procedure. Create a system that is flexible in regards to the individual but meets specific criteria at certain points to access professional services.

Or maybe you are looking at this from the completely wrong perspective. Instead of creating a system where the current system must adapt to you, you should look into a simpler way to make the system work to your advantage. Consider, how many drugs and chemicals exist that can be accessed with no restrictions that are known to cause cancer? Instead of looking for prescription items that are restricted, research a simple cancer inducing cocktail for testicular cancer anyone can mix up at home from available products. Might be as simple as turning on your cell phone and carrying it in your jock strap for a few months, hint, hint. Or make sure your scrotum and testicles get a good sunburn and tan to induce a malinoma requiring surgical removal. Instead of avoiding the things that increase your chance of prostrate cancer, indulge in them so the testicles must be removed. (I just now came up with this idea but the concept leads to some interesting story lines that could be posted on this site.) How many "legal" ways are there that lead to medical castration by a doctor and how can I cause that to happen with minimal fuss.

Hope I made you think

BernadetteTS

First of all, in order for any standards to be successful, "eunuch" is going to have to be defined as a man without testicles, and nothing more. I would imagine that identifying as "eunuch" as a gender is probably one of the least common reasons for wanting to be cut, and if we define eunuch as such for these standards, then a lot of people who identify as men but want to have their nuts removed for various valid reasons are going to be left out.

Once we establish what we mean by eunuch, we reach the next and far more difficult step of determining what qualifies as a valid motivation for wanting the testicles removed. Since there are far more valid motivations than there are for MtF transition, this is going to be difficult to agree on and perhaps impossible.

Does an overactive libido qualify? If so, when is a libido overactive? Is it whenever the individual considers it overactive? Is age taken into account? What do we tell a 20 year-old who masturbates twice a day and considers that overactive?

Do body modification/dysphoria reasons count? If so, why not let a person remove whatever body parts they feel they were not meant to have? What makes the testicles any more valid to remove for these reasons than a finger, a toe, an arm, or a leg?

Do religious reasons count? If so, does it have to be accepted among most members of that religion that castration is acceptable? Or can just one member of the religion truly feel that their God is calling them to castration? What about the risks of the person leaving the religion at some point in the future?

Do fetish reasons count? If not, what is a person to do if the fetish is interfering with their life and therapy/SSRIs dont help? Might some find relief from the fetish through castration? If we do allow some fetish cases to qualify, how do we know which are appropriate?

Does identyfing as "eunuch" as a gender qualify? How do we determine if someone truly identifies as eunuch? Only by their call?

What about people who have childhood issues that are clearly or at least very likely leading to the desires for castration (e.g., the mother repeatedly abused their testicles when they were a young boy or verbally told them they were going to cut them off) and who are not helped by therapy/SSRIs? Do we allow these cases to qualify?

And what about the other reasons that are out there? There are way too many to even attempt to list. Does it come down to whoever is of sound mind (either with or without treatment, see below) and can pass the hurdles qualifies, whatever their reason?

As for whether someone is of "sound mind" - I find it interesting to see everyone say that we need to make sure someone seeking MtF transition or castration is not a "nut job." I say this because a psychotic disorder is not necessarily an absolute contraindication to MtF transition, and I don't believe it should be for castration either. There have been cases of TS people who also have psychotic disorders, and who still have the TS feelings once the psychosis is under control. Some of these have successfully transitioned.

My gender therapist told me she was working with a schizophrenic client who she allowed to transition once the client got her psychosis under control with medication. The TS desires were still present, and it was clear they were separate from the psychosis. Just because someone has a psychotic disorder does not mean they don't have feelings and desires separate from the psychosis. If they can control the psychosis yet they still have the feelings, then I see no problems with allowing them to be who they feel they need to be. Certainly extreme caution is needed in these cases, and these people should only be allowed to transition under the care of someone experienced in dealing with co-occuring psychosis and gender dysphoria.

Since there can be co-occuring psychosis and gender dysphoria, why not psychosis and desires for castration that are separate from the psychosis?

So I would say people need to be of sound mind in order to achieve castration under these standards, but I would include people who are of sound mind with the help of medication or other treatments.

Unfortunately I feel that there are too many motivations for seeking castration, and there is no real way everyone can agree on which are valid. So the only way this is going to work is by allowing everyone who is of sound mind and who follows the standards successfully (therapy, chemical castration, etc.) to achieve castration, whatever their motivation. We are just going to have to accept that there are going to be people with reasons that we find bizarre, but that are perfectly valid to them.

As for age, I would say in order to please a lot of people, we are going to have to set a minimum age for chemical castration and surgical castration. This is where we come to another difficult issue, that of adolescents or pre-pubescent children. This issue will probably mostly only apply to the identifying as eunuch as a gender motivation.

A lot of us here at the EA knew that we wanted them off before we even entered puberty. We likely identified as eunuch as a gender, or at least were uncomfortable with the presence of the testicles. Certainly there are going to be children who are going to identify as eunuch from an early age. What do we do in these cases? For those who they say have to wait till they are adults, is that really fair? Puberty is irreversible, and contrary to popular belief, most people are either in the far advanced stages of puberty or have finished altogether by age 18. Is it fair to tell these kids who know for sure they are eunuchs that they will just have to endure irreversible masculinization of their bodies and minds?

So if we compromise and decide chemical castration is acceptable until adulthood, what about those who actually are not true eunuchs? Chemical castration probably causes irreversible damage to the testicles, and I believe the testicles are even more likely to be permanently damaged if they are never even allowed to come to life to begin with.

This is why the issue of children is going to be very difficult, probably equally difficult to the issue of deciding what motivations are valid. We have to balance out fear of a child regretting it versus forcing a true eunuch to have his body and mind irreversibly masculinized.

That being said, if we do decide to allow children to participate, I'd say age 12 for chemical and age 18 for surgical. If we do not, I'd say 18 for chemical and 25 for surgical. I pick this age of 25 for surgical because studies have shown that the final maturing of the brain when it comes to long-term decisions does not take place until 25 (I've still got two years to go before I am magically able to make good long-term decisions starting on that 25th birthday).

As for the standards themselves? My suggestions would be similar to the TS SoC, three months minimum of therapy to determine if the desires for castration are valid, followed by a year minimum of chemical castration at the recommendation of at least an MA or MS, followed by surgical castration at the recommendation of a therapist and MD. People who have followed these standards successfully should be forbidden from filing any lawsuits.

This is going to be a lot more difficult than it looks, and I see it working only if we define eunuch as nothing other a man without testicles and accept any motivation so long as the person is of sound mind and follows the standards.

You must be a lawyer. If you are, your probable a good one. Now that you've bummed me out I'll just shut up.

Pauline

well as far as of being mentally fit enough to understand the procedure and its effects, that's mostly to filter out the casual seekers and people who might come back and sue, gives the doctor a paper that says basically the patient knew what would happen and was of enough mental fitness to understand it.

as to the procedure's "gate keeper" standard, its a very debatable item. Very hard to tell who will be our next "back ally eunuch" if denied...

Plix, in responding to the kind of query I am making, has not only demonstrated a great deal of thought about the very issue, he also begs and raises a lot of questions. Thanks Josh for your post. Any other comments? I looking for what CAN be done, if not what MUST be done. By the way, Bernadette, I would very much like to rea your paper. Would you be willing to zip and email it?

Mental health and being able to understand what this surgery does are two things. I think Plix makes a good point about mental issues not being a reason to say no to SRS for transexuals is good. I think when we use the concept of "sanity" check what we are talking about are people that feel they need an Orchiectomy so they can fly to Mars to meet the mothership people. Clearly untreated supercrazy people should not be carved on if Doctors don't wish to field endless lawsuits. Or I think so. And those without the mental capacity to make this sort of choice.

I think the reasons for this are varied and many. I think its going to be hard for random people to sit in judgement over who can have it and who can't.

I for example thing a sex maniac child molester not only should be allowed to have his sex drive surgically removed but I would like it done with a blow torch.

The husbands who want to limit their own sex drive with surgery to match their wives? I really hate to see that (myself) and think it would be far better for them to dial UP the wives drive with HRT. But this is probably why I would make a poor judge of this...

And of course the other zillion other types of cases I didn't mention? What about them?

Putting people and SOC into a box, it's not for me. Most know their own mind. For those determined enough, as this board has shown, most can find their way around any hurdles put in place. There should be support, something Eunuch Central does very well (kind help from amazing individuals whom have walked the walk), but not mental assessments. The people who benefit (financially) from any SOC would be the therapists.

Instead of inducing cancer (a very bad idea) to get your balls removed, I've heard that extreme pain from a sports injury may get the desired result.