Oberon888 (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:29 pm
Thanks sooo much for this! I'm intersex and transitioning towards the femme side of androgyny, and I get so weary explaining that my gender isn't what is in my pants, isn't a product of surgery or hormones, and not at all open to debate.
It is who I am. Period.
I say sometimes I feel so lucky to be who I am, to see and understand things and ideas that not many others can see or comprehend.
On a side note, after my last post I have been keeping myself infibulated, my piercings have healed nicely and my lack of testosterone keeps me held back and smooth very nicely, thanks to Stu at Body parts, thong bikini pictures to follow
I am a male who seeks to be asexual, aromantic, castrated only (chemically or surgically), not transsexual.
It is interesting to see the various transsexual possibilities that people seek out and achieve. And there are so many possible combinations that I never thought about. Like for men, one or more of the following :
Addition of breasts, castration only, complete removal of genitals, addition of vagina, 24 different possible combinations, with partial or complete changes in outward appearance/behavior and many categories of possible androgeny.
The "Golden Rule" does not apply to body/sexuality/gender behavior. Perhaps call it the Platinum Rule. "Do unto others -if you want- as they want you to do, and do unto yourself as you choose".
Most people seem to declare to themselves, and to others, that there are only 2 kinds of sexuality; male OR female, physically, in behavior, and in dress.
In reality, it would seem that the majority of people are partially of both genders, in one or more ways, but fear of social rejection by society makes most stick to the 2-sexual-system.
Sometimes the people who condem or criticise the most, deep down, wish they could live their lives as they really are, but they are constrained by their own fear of being condemned or criticised by others.
Living ones life openly and honestly,
Living ones life privately and in a sham,
each comes with problems, risks, and rewards.
What problems, risks, rewards we are willing to accept contributes greatly to how we choose to outwardly live. Our inner self is not a choice. What is, is.
We can always choose to change, or not change, our physical body, our appearance, our behavior.
But in essence, internally, we remain the same.
Knowing and seeing the real us, and accepting it, is the first challenge.
Enduring society's acceptance of us accepting ourselves is the next challenge.
Few succeed at one, fewer at both.
So difficult it is, No wonder so many live a life of lies, in denial, but accepted.
Being loved and accepted, or at least noticed, is one of our most basic of instincts.
Sometimes we do things not because they represent the real us.
We do them just to get noticed, a substitute for love and acceptance.
Sometimes the notice we get amounts to criticism, condemnation, or worse.
But for some reason even that seems better than being completely ignored.
Thus, trying to figure out the real us, and why we do what we do, if you stop to think about it, is a real mind boggling challenge.
Very well observed. As with everything, of course there tends to be more than an exclusive duality for all factors. We're all born physically male, female, or intersexed. We're all born male gendered, female gendered, or neither/both (big grey area this, neither/both is a very loose general description). We're all born masculine in nature, feminine in nature, or androgynous. We're all born dominant in personality, submissive, or neither/both. We're all born with a thing for men, a thing for women, or a thing for both sides.
Now a person's existance and identity broadly speaking is a combination of one of every category above. What are the permutation and combinations available? Quite a lot as we can see. And bear in mind thats only a very generic combination, and that we're not even delving deeper into subcategories yet!
Of course I do agree that there will be a "common" combination because that is what the species depends on to survive, but the world population grew from 2 billion in 1950 to 8 billion in 2009, and is set to hit 16 billion in 2015. Survival of the species numbers is now hardly a matter of concern to the species which is why we are beginning to see greater diversity in the sort of possible combination that generally makes up a human being.
Wowww..... Eight billion egos walking around out there. And I had begun life thinking that I was the most imortant. Oh well. Anyway because all these egos group together in ant like form many times this causes whole groups of them to have what one might consider strange and self defeating belief systems which cause much unnecessary grief on certain individuals -er egos. Transgender/transexual people SHOULD be allowed to lose or to keep their organs as they so desire without the interference of the whole group which happens to have a strange and self defeating belief system based upon their egos aggregating in ant like form. Oh well.
I just realised I made a tiny mistake. The world population is set to hit 16 billion and stabilise at that level around 2050, not 2015. 2015 is when many estimates state that we will hit 9 billion.
I would really love to read some hard data on the "significant minority" of post op women who regret their surgeries. Not only is significant minority a misnomer but the hard data out there suggests that the real numbers are well below 5%.
I know there are many people who want surgery and cant get it and I have all the empathy and respect in the world for them. I hope one day that they can get the surgery necessary to be a woman.
As for the transgendered people who are non op or any other of the myriad of self-affixed labels that have emerged in the last decade or so, stop calling yourself transsexuals. If you have a penis and you want to keep it, you are not a woman.
SRS is very safe, post op orgasmic capability is more around the 70-80% range with the other 20 to 30% mostly women who had problems before surgery or arent interested in orgasm.
There are a few people in this thread really messing with some numbers and spreading typical "tranny" misinformation and you should stop it.
Becky
post op for 6 years, orgasmic, married to a man, heterosexual, stealth and happier than ever
Becky- I know you are very proud of your SRS, and that is your right and I am glad for you. But you do not have the right to negate my right of self-identification as I choose.
Trans people can identify as their affirmed gender irregardless of the shape of our genitalia.
Anything less makes us subject the the gender police. Are you a member of the police?
For Becky666 for a M-F transition removal of male genitals are necessary to be a complete transsexual.
To others, such alterations are not necessary.
I say, to each his or her own choice. Whatever makes you feel complete, go for it.
And try to be understanding and accepting of what makes other people feel complete.
Not just tolerant, but understanding and accepting.
I would be inclined to suspect, and even believe, that the percentage of individuals who are mentally / emotionally / and physically mis-matched might be about the same throughout time. There will be no way for any of us to know the answer to this.
As society goes from 2 billion to 20 billion that percentage of people who have mis-matched body and person might stay about the same. Again, no way of knowing this.
I assume that person/gender mis-matches are a natural occurance. Others will declare that the body type is right but the person has a "mental defect". I don't think so.
When something happens that is inclusive of every race and both sexes, and it happens over and over I am inclined to believe it is just a natural part of nature experimenting with various combinations and this is not a "defect" of the body or the mind.
If you believe in evolution, it is claimed that natural variations are how life has evolved. Gender identity mis-matches could be happening to other species, but how would we know?
As the population grows this means even if the percentage of the population that has gender mis-matches remains the same there are more actual numbers of people who are mis-matched. With freedom, communications, a more open society, and medical opportunities for SRS that did not exist in earlier times, the landscape changes.
"It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it must be a duck". An old saying that came from who? when? where? why?
Now I doubt that ducks are having gender mis-match considerations (but you never know.....male ducks have been known to "pal" around with one another and shy away from females..........female ducks hang around with female ducks and also don't mate). But when you look at a duck you pretty much assume from all of the visual indicators that it is male or female and there is no need to look under its feathers to confirm this.
Not being a transsexual, nor wanting to be one, I am yet perfectly comfortable with anyone who wants to live their life in the gender identity role that they choose, regardless of what body parts they were born with. I see no need for someone to alter their body in any way for the purpose of living their life as they choose. But much of society thinks differently so If the individual feels there is a need to conduct some type of dress/behavior/body modification so that they can be more socially comfortable living their life as they need to live it, fine with me too.
What visual clues tell me a person is physically a male or female?
Not hair. It might be long, short, shaved on either sex.
Not clothes. Women commonly wear "mens" clothing today; levis, flannel, boots.
although men don't commonly wear "women's" clothing or types of jewelry.
Not crotch. Assuming a person is wearing pants, a crotch shot is no indication of male or female. A male can tuck it, or stuff a sock; A female can stuff in visual enhancement. There is no absolute certainty.
Not behavior. Some Women who are and want to be female "act manly". Some Men who are and want to be male "act femine".
From a photo, or visually in person where someone is not moving or talking, there are 4 indicators that lead me to suspect a person is male or female:
Body Hair: While not absolute, there is a higher probability that a person with hair on their face, arms, legs is male.
Skin texture: Fair and smooth; female. Coarse, male.
But even then, individually each factor is inconclusive.
Add them all up and a combination of factors do lead me to believe that a person is physically male or female.
There are men, who want to be male, who have a combination of factors that almost make them appear to be either a M-F or F-M (in one way or another).
There are women, who want to be women, who have a combination of factors that almost make them to be either a M-F or F-M (in one way or another).
Now, I know many of you out there are going to disagree with me on what follows, but as an outside observer I think the term "transsexual" is a mis-nomer, at least to the best of my knowledge it is a mis-nomer.
If you can alter a physical male so that he can completely looses his male genitals and has functioning genitals that can give birth and lactate
If you can alter a physical woman so that she completely looses her female genitals and has functioning genitals that can impregnate a woman with viable sperm
THEN, in my mind, that person is a true trans-sexual.
Why? Well "trans-" is defined as "completely changed" or "changing thoroughly".
My own definition of a M-F or F-M change (in any degree) is "cross-sexual".
Not cross-dressing, but cross-sexual.
Because the change, no matter how much, can (to the best of my knowledge) never be absolutely thoroughly complete.
To be socially viewed as one sex or the other, one must make one's body and behavior have a majority of visible features that society views as indicators of being male or female. Emphasis on VISIBLE.
Hair, skin, dress, behavior, and yes, breasts. But not between the legs genitals.
And the removal of male genitals, with or without creation of a visual vagina, still isn't "the real thing".
becky666 (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:46 am
I would really love to read some hard data on the "significant minority" of post op women who regret their surgeries. Not only is significant minority a misnomer but the hard data out there suggests that the real numbers are well below 5%.
I know there are many people who want surgery and cant get it and I have all the empathy and respect in the world for them. I hope one day that they can get the surgery necessary to be a woman.
As for the transgendered people who are non op or any other of the myriad of self-affixed labels that have emerged in the last decade or so, stop calling yourself transsexuals. If you have a penis and you want to keep it, you are not a woman.
SRS is very safe, post op orgasmic capability is more around the 70-80% range with the other 20 to 30% mostly women who had problems before surgery or arent interested in orgasm.
There are a few people in this thread really messing with some numbers and spreading typical "tranny" misinformation and you should stop it.
Becky
post op for 6 years, orgasmic, married to a man, heterosexual, stealth and happier than ever
Hi Becky666,
I couldn't agree with you more. Having had my own SRS procedure 7 months ago, I feel very much the same way as you.
While being a part of a very small minority, I'm the last person who will put anybody down or criticize them for their beliefs or feelings, but to me, anyone who wants to look the part of the opposite gender from what they were born physically and yet has the desire to retain their "birth parts" is NOT a transsexual, but rather a transgendered individual whether it be MTF or FTM. Try a few sessions with a gender therapist and I think you'll quickly find out the difference between a transsexual and a transgendered person.
Let's explore the definition of "transsexual" as defined by some who have a pretty good knowledge of the subject.
worldnet.princton.edu: a person who has undergone a sex change operation
ftmguide.org: An individual whose gender identity does not match the sex that was assigned to them at birth. Many transsexual people will seek hormonal and/or surgical treatment in order to bring their body into alignment with their gender identity.
ifsha.org: A person who believes that he or she is psychologically akin to the opposite gender and feels trapped in ones biological sex. A transsexual may seek medical help to surgically change the genitals and other aspects of appearance to match the deeply felt internal gender identity. ...
I for one never had any love whatsoever for my "boy parts." Every time I stepped out of the shower and had to dry myself I would just cringe at the site of that thing hanging there. I would always think to myself "What is that thing and why is it there? It's not supposed to be there." For me, I'm ecstatic with the results of my SRS and have never been happier in my life. I now finally feel complete, both inside and out. For the first time in my life, I am finally one with myself.
For those out there that cannot have SRS due to health or financial reasons, I can truly understand your feelings and frustration. I was there for a half of a century myself. Now, after having completed the long road of transition with the cumulation of this journey being my SRS, I no longer look upon myself as a transsexual, but rather simply as a woman.
I know there are a number of people in this thread that aren't going to agree with me and that is most certainly their right, and I will not deny your right to classify yourself as anything you like, but I'm also going to exercise my right to express my own feelings on this topic.
I'm intersex and transitioning towards the femme side of androgyny, and I get so weary explaining that my gender isn't what is in my pants, isn't a product of surgery or hormones, and not at all open to debate.
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