Create Vagina without losing Penis?

[calmeilles (imported)]

Is it not curious that in Asia the ladyboys (in their various guises) are often seen as something other than male or female while here in the West only one or other of the duality is considered acceptable: just about any term i can think of for something other than male or female is pejorative, or is often heard used perjoratively.

[Priscilla (imported)]

I understand the problems with the word "shemale", as this is the term used on numerous porn websites to describe a MtF transsexual who has her penis and is in the porn trade. The very unfortunate issue here is that because of job discrimination, tacitly or openly, many young TSs cannot find good jobs and have to resort to the sex trade.

This is a shame and a sin.

I have a body like these sisters of mine, but I have been fortunate enough to have a good job and very supportive employers.

That being said, I use the word "shemale" sometimes to describe my body, and also to make the point that I am not "better" than any of my sisters in the sex trade, in fact I stand in solidarity with them and will continue to fight for the rights of all TSs, wherever they are.

Hugs to you ALL

[punkypink (imported)]

hmm interesting i guess...

I prefer to show solidarity with them, not by calling myself a shemale, but by not seeing them as one too. To me they're all girls. If its my own body I have to describe, I see no need to mince words and unashamedly describe it as male. I'm comfortable with the fact that I'm a girl in a male body that I no longer see any need to "dress" up the fact that my body is a male one. Words like shemale describe nothing, and only brings with it negative conotations.

As for the asian trend of addressing us as an "other gender", one has to 1st consider the conformist mindset of asians. This is something I know intimately since I grew up in asia. Since we do not conform, but there is little chance of us waving the white flag, and living a lie in the role expected of one with our birth gender just so their ignorant sensibilities aren't offended, the next best thing they can do is to exclude us from the "normal" genders and deny us the basic recognition we are entitled to, and seek, as our right. No matter how tolerant they are, such mindsets ultimately are a passive form of discrimination and contribute to other more overt forms of discrimination. Thailand for example, is famous for its transsexuals, and yet refuse to recognise them legally as women even after they've gone the whole hog. Contrast that to UK which is more than happy to recognise us as women legally, and FtMs as men, as long as we fulfill 3 criterias: certified with GID, full time for a minimum of 2 years, and a guarentee that you intend to permantly live in the role that matches yr gender identity. And the best thing of course is, UK allows for provision for people who do not identify as male or female alongside non discriminatory gender recognition of transsexuals. Asia's way is but a sort of deceptive bigotry made to look nice and "diversified".

Calmeilles, the term ladyboy isn't one that celebrates genders that exist outside a duality like you might think it to be. In asia, the term ladyboy or most other similiar descriptives is very often really not much more than a descriptive word like "dog" and does not contain with it any sort of respect. In fact because most people there see ladyboys as ladyboys and not women, in asia we're seen as some sort of sub-human class of things, who exist solely to fulfill their sexual fetishes and needs, and seldom as people who're on par with them and equally deserving of respect. Give me the western duality anyday, at least I get more respect. Degradory or not, terms like these should just be done away with. At least the degradory ones are an obvious threat towards non-discrimination, its the ones that sound nice that help to promote discrimination and allow it to sneak in under the radar.

Only the indian hijra seems to be one that has any mediocum of respect contained within it, and that is due to the unique role that hijras play within indian society. Even then, hirajs are actually not strictly limited to transsexuals, and is a massive diversified group. Most adjectives I know that come to mean transsexuals like "shemale", "ladyboy" or "bapok", do not contain any trace of respect in their intended meanings and conotations.

[calmeilles (imported)]

I didn't use the word "celebrate" or anything like it. I do know that it's not all roses: I have a Filipino (or should that be Filipina?) friend who complains bitterly that he can't get a "normal" job although what he does do, hostess manager of a Tokyo club, makes him wealthy by the standards of his peers.

The strong duality of male and female leaves us no place for the intermediate, indeterminate, eunuch or just plain contrary.

[punkypink (imported)]

I didn't use the word "celebrate" or anything like it. I do know that it's not all roses: I have a Filipino (or should that be Filipina?) friend who complains bitterly that he can't get a "normal" job although what he does do, hostess manager of a Tokyo club, makes him wealthy by the standards of his peers.

The strong duality of male and female leaves us no place for the intermediate, indeterminate, eunuch or just plain contrary.

A strong duality does leave

place for the intermediate, indeterminate, eunuch

and plain contary.

Having a strong exclusion category does anything for people who're outside the boundaries of what is considered normal might also leave place for people who dont belong to either major sides, but it does nothing to get them treated fairly. Fact is its fairer to have a strong duality, and then allow people to decide that they are neither or something else, than have a 3rd existing social category between the 2 that allows discrimination by giving "normal" people a place to dump the rest of us who aren't "normal" into.

You might not realise, but a strong duality is not the same as an exclusive duality. In an exclusive duality, there is no room for existance outside of that duality. In a strong duality, there is plenty of little niche spaces for people outside of the duality to fill themselves wherever they feel comfortable putting themselves. Imagine an exclusive duality as 2 halves of a circle, while a strong duality are 2 large ovals within a circle. In the latter there is plenty of space that is not defined, that allows scope for personal identification, while at the same time, ensuring that because a 3rd distinct category does not exist, the opportunities for discrimination is much smaller.

So I have to say that I strongly disagree with what you said. Maybe it was an exclusive duality you had in mind, but from comparing Asia and the West, I have to say that it is a strong duality that exists in the West, and not an exclusive one. Asia's system of having a 3rd distinct category does not elevate it above the West in terms of allowing for individuals who do not wish to belong to either, because it then forces the definition of the 3rd category on those individuals who might not agree with that definition either. For eg, in Thailand, the term ladyboy is widely applied to mean crossdressers, transsexuals and transvestites. I'm sure not every crossdresser, transsexual and transvestite feel like they should be identified under the "ladyboy" umbrella. I am sure that eunuchs would also get pushed under the ladyboy definition in thailand because its their "dustbin" for anyone who doesnt fit within the duality of male and female, and I can also say that a lot of eunuchs wouldnt be happy about being put into a 3rd category that they dont feel like they belong to.

In short, I will make a stand that a strong duality is actually the best system, because 1stly, as a species we HAVE a strong duality. The system of strong duality allows for people who have small variations from either dualities belong, while giving the freedom for people who choose to exist outside of those 2 dualities to do so. I've done a little diagram to illustrate the point. Hope it helps.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.p ... 165723.jpg

[calmeilles (imported)]

I take you point.

Maybe my problem here is that I don't see anybody inhabiting that grey zone in the diagram, here at home I mean, there obviously are some on the EA.

[gildedgurl (imported)]

Certain terms or labels are repulsive to me when they are said to me. I have the same response to shemale and ladyboy as I do to Suzi (I'm Chinese).

Suzi is an HK hooker in "The World of Suzi Wong," a white boy's novel (1957) and movie (1960, I was 21 yrs old).

For me, all 3 terms are STRONGLY associated w/ porn and sex-industry and disgust me. Too many strangers yelling Suzi to get my attention has made me a bit sensitive to shemale and ladyboy labels.

A hidden history of Asians: most Asian women of my generation know what I'm talking about.

Just my .02 yen

- G Gutl

[kristoff]

Getting quite off topic from the fantasy orientation of the thread. Keep the politics - and it is politics, even if sexual politics - on the political board.

[Elizabeth (imported)]

Hi everyone,

While it's a great fantasy, I think it highly unlikely that anyone has undergone such a procedure. Mainly because the requirements of the SOC (Standards of Care), which require one to have letters from two psychologists, one at the masters level and the other at the doctorate level, to have sex change surgery or orchiectomy(castration).

I don't see any doctor saying that someone needs to have both a penis and a vagina. So I am not saying it's impossible, but being a moderator on a forum with many transgendered people, I have never heard of such a thing. I know there are "cutters" in Thailand that do Sex change surgery on the cheap with no letters, but as one might expect the results are not that great and many suffer from severe complications and infections. It's doubtful they could perform such a complicated procedure.

Elizabeth

[punkypink (imported)]

hmm what if a patient is certified as being able to benefit from an improved quality of life and enjoy improved psychological well-being from having both?