Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

kathie (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by kathie (imported) »

Thank you for this thought provoking discussion. I really caught a good glimpse of myself in my immediate reaction to your replies. For instance Slammr wrote, "
Slammr (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:31 pm Just read the newspapers. Far more reports of older men chasing younger women make the news than does reports of older men chasing younger men, and plenty of men in their 50s are being drained of their money by young ladies in their 20s,
" and A-1 wrote, "
A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:44 pm Your few male homosexual friends probably are attracted to young boys (not necessarily children, but from 18ish to 25 or 30) IF the truth were known, heterosexual men also have such an attraction to females of the same age. ", and, "IF you read the literature in the E.A. many of the stories involve males who are nutered by females.
"

When I read this, I said to myself at once, "Oh, Yeah, that's true." then I immediately understood what was meant. It is interesting that I forgot about the males being neutered by females.

At first I wondered where A-1 got the idea that I was disgusted with the gay writers in the Archive, but in noting my reactions to the replies, I have to admit that I'm not treating the straight men and the gay men equally, or at least not with the same amount of understanding.

Many good insights came to light about the functions of writing the stories. there is food for thought here.
A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:44 pm As you read and are more and more disgusted with the E.A. Archives remember this. Man's inhumanity to man is without limit.
mrt (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by mrt (imported) »

Speaking as a parent I'm against it. I think it serves no purpose other then evil.

BTW "it" being stories about Kids in sexual or forced into castration porn.

I'm not a prude. I've read some of the more mainstream stuff but the kids stuff just chills the shit out of me.

A-1 had some interesting points but I don't think any of this is worth getting one weak minded sex idiot "into" this and hurting one kid.
IbPervert (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by IbPervert (imported) »

No matter what country you live in...How would feel you if the local authorities decide to look into your past, and then it became public? What your doing could be perfectly legal but in the eyes of your local authorities, the press, and the public could see it in a completely different light.

A Good example....

You write some stories that contain children and post them to the Archive. One day your in a restroom a little boy can not get his pants up, so you become a good person and help the kid out. eWhile helping the child pull his pants up and close his zipper someone else walks in, and sees you bent over with you hands around the child groin area! This person screams and runs for help, and soon the police are involved and your in handcuffs and this time its not fun type of handcuffs! :D The police obtain search warrants and go ransack your house. During the course of there investigation they search your computer and obtain your records from your internet provider and the search engines you use. Soon they find out you come to the archive and order them to hand over your records in which they find your stories that happened to have children involved. This is more evidence against you! They then start questioning the child, and soon the boy is telling them what they want to hear. That is more evidence against you! In some areas of the world those two pieces of evidence would be enough to convict you.

Now I realize the above is a very hypothetical situation, but it is possible. So is it legally wrong (making a distinct line in the sand between legally and morally) to write stories about youth? It Depends on your country and the current attitudes of that nation!

Is there potential for getting into trouble over writing suggestive stories about minors or writing any questionable stories? Yes!

People still have an attitude that everything on the net is temporary, and it is gone at the drop of a hat! Well that is the furthest thing from the truth! In actuality the Internet has a very long memory of activity, and if someone wants to find it they most likely can.

How long is this internet memory?

That depends on how long your ISP keeps the data it collects on your surfing habits and email received.

It also depends on which search engine you use. If you have an account with Yahell, Google and MSN then they have your legal name and its easy to track your activities. If you do not have an account with a search engine then they track it by your IP number.

( Note- For those who do not know what an IP number is...every computer connected to the web is assigned an IP number. Some are temporary like dialup, and others are more permanent like DSL or cable modems, and when was the last time you turned off your dsl or cable mode box and turned it back on to reset your IP address. Also, when you type a domain name in that is quickly compared with list of other names and then they use the IP number next to that name)

The search engines typically keep data for at least 12 to 18 months at a minimum it could be longer! Not only do they get to use it for what ever they want, but can turn it over to police if they ask and/or serve the right warrants.

Plus, the legal officials can also search through your computer as well and thanks to the history file see where you have been and when. Then go look through all your files and temp files!

So I think the real question should be....

The potential future problems with writing minor related stories something you wish to deal with? Not trying to down grade the legality of stories involving minors, but there are other aspects that need to be addressed as well.
erikboy (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by erikboy (imported) »

Long time ago there was an interesting case in Canada. Two clearly underage boys took naked pictures of each other and sold them. Police was soon there, but there was noone to blame on taking advantage of youth. I don't know how this case ended.

This type of cases are rather rare I think but what if I write a story that is partly true, and that is based on my own experience when I was young? should I prove it somehow?
ramses (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by ramses (imported) »

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v.

FREE SPEECH COALITION et al.

CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-795.ZS.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. 00—795. Argued October 30, 2001–Decided April 16, 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 (CPPA) expands the federal prohibition on child pornography to include not only pornographic images made using actual children, 18 U.S.C. § 2256(8)(A), but also “any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture” that “is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct,” §2256(8)(B), and any sexually explicit image that is “advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression” it depicts “a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct,” §2256(8)(D). Thus, §2256(8)(B) bans a range of sexually explicit images, sometimes called “virtual child pornography,” that appear to depict minors but were produced by means other than using real children, such as through the use of youthful-looking adults or computer-imaging technology. Section 2256(8)(D) is aimed at preventing the production or distribution of pornographic material pandered as child pornography. Fearing that the CPPA threatened their activities, respondents, an adult-entertainment trade association and others, filed this suit alleging that the “appears to be” and “conveys the impression” provisions are overbroad and vague, chilling production of works protected by the First Amendment. The District Court disagreed and granted the Government summary judgment, but the Ninth Circuit reversed. Generally, pornography can be banned only if it is obscene under Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, but pornography depicting actual children can be proscribed whether or not the images are obscene because of the State’s interest in protecting the children exploited by the production process, New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 758, and in prosecuting those who promote such sexual exploitation, id., at 761. The Ninth Circuit held the CPPA invalid on its face, finding it to be substantially overbroad because it bans materials that are neither obscene under Miller nor produced by the exploitation of real children as in Ferber.

Held: The prohibitions of §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are overbroad and unconstitutional. Pp. 6—21.

(a) Section 2256(8)(B) covers materials beyond the categories recognized in Ferber and Miller, and the reasons the Government offers in support of limiting the freedom of speech have no justification in this Court’s precedents or First Amendment law. Pp. 6—19.

(1) The CPPA is inconsistent with Miller. It extends to images that are not obscene under the Miller standard, which requires the Government to prove that the work in question, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value, 413 U.S., at 24. Materials need not appeal to the prurient interest under the CPPA, which proscribes any depiction of sexually explicit activity, no matter how it is presented. It is not necessary, moreover, that the image be patently offensive. Pictures of what appear to be 17-year-olds engaging in sexually explicit activity do not in every case contravene community standards. The CPPA also prohibits speech having serious redeeming value, proscribing the visual depiction of an idea–that of teenagers engaging in sexual activity–that is a fact of modern society and has been a theme in art and literature for centuries. A number of acclaimed movies, filmed without any child actors, explore themes within the wide sweep of the statute’s prohibitions. If those movies contain a single graphic depiction of sexual activity within the statutory definition, their possessor would be subject to severe punishment without inquiry into the literary value of the work. This is inconsistent with an essential First Amendment rule: A work’s artistic merit does not depend on the presence of a single explicit scene. See, e.g., Book Named “John Cleland’s Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure” v. Attorney General of Mass., 383 U.S. 413, 419. Under Miller, redeeming value is judged by considering the work as a whole. Where the scene is part of the narrative, the work itself does not for this reason become obscene, even though the scene in isolation might be offensive. See Kois v. Wisconsin, 408 U.S. 229, 231 (per curiam). The CPPA cannot be read to prohibit obscenity, because it lacks the required link between its prohibitions and the affront to community standards prohibited by the obscenity definition. Pp. 6—11.

(2) The CPPA finds no support in Ferber. The Court rejects the Government’s argument that speech prohibited by the CPPA is virtually indistinguishable from material that may be banned under Ferber. That case upheld a prohibition on the distribution and sale of child pornography, as well as its production, because these acts were “intrinsically related” to the sexual abuse of children in two ways. 458 U.S., at 759. First, as a permanent record of a child’s abuse, the continued circulation itself would harm the child who had participated. See id., at 759, and n. 10. Second, because the traffic in child pornography was an economic motive for its production, the State had an interest in closing the distribution network. Id., at 760. Under either rationale, the speech had what the Court in effect held was a proximate link to the crime from which it came. In contrast to the speech in Ferber, speech that is itself the record of sexual abuse, the CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not “intrinsically related” to the sexual abuse of children. While the Government asserts that the images can lead to actual instances of child abuse, the causal link is contingent and indirect. The harm does not necessarily follow from the speech, but depends upon some unquantified potential for subsequent criminal acts. The Government’s argument that these indirect harms are sufficient because, as Ferber acknowledged, child pornography rarely can be valuable speech, see id., at 762, suffers from two flaws. First, Ferber’s judgment about child pornography was based upon how it was made, not on what it communicated. The case reaffirmed that where the speech is neither obscene nor the product of sexual abuse, it does not fall outside the First Amendment’s protection. See id., at 764—765. Second, Ferber did not hold that child pornography is by definition without value. It recognized some works in this category might have significant value, see id., at 761, but relied on virtual images–the very images prohibited by the CPPA–as an alternative and permissible means of expression, id., at 763. Because Ferber relied on the distinction between actual and virtual child pornography as supporting its holding, it provides no support for a statute that eliminates the distinction and makes the alternative mode criminal as well. Pp. 11—13.

(3) The Court rejects other arguments offered by the Government to justify the CPPA’s prohibitions. The contention that the CPPA is necessary because pedophiles may use virtual child pornography to seduce children runs afoul of the principle that speech within the rights of adults to hear may not be silenced completely in an attempt to shield children from it. See, e.g., Sable Communications of Cal., Inc. v. FCC, 492 U.S. 115, 130—131. That the evil in question depends upon the actor’s unlawful conduct, defined as criminal quite apart from any link to the speech in question, establishes that the speech ban is not narrowly drawn. The argument that virtual child pornography whets pedophiles’ appetites and encourages them to engage in illegal conduct is unavailing because the mere tendency of speech to encourage unlawful acts is not a sufficient reason for banning it, Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 566, absent some showing of a direct connection between the speech and imminent illegal conduct, see, e.g., Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (per curiam). The argument that eliminating the market for pornography produced using real children necessitates a prohibition on virtual images as well is somewhat implausible because few pornographers would risk prosecution for abusing real children if fictional, computerized images would suffice. Moreover, even if the market deterrence theory were persuasive, the argument cannot justify the CPPA because, here, there is no underlying crime at all. Finally, the First Amendment is turned upside down by the argument that, because it is difficult to distinguish between images made using real children and those produced by computer imaging, both kinds of images must be prohibited. The overbreadth doctrine prohibits the Government from banning unprotected speech if a substantial amount of protected speech is prohibited or chilled in the process. See Broadrick v. Oklahoma, 413 U.S. 601, 612. The Government’s rejoinder that the CPPA should be read not as a prohibition on speech but as a measure shifting the burden to the accused to prove the speech is lawful raises serious constitutional difficulties. The Government misplaces its reliance on §2252A(c), which creates an affirmative defense allowing a defendant to avoid conviction for nonpossession offenses by showing that the materials were produced using only adults and were not otherwise distributed in a manner conveying the impression that they depicted real children. Even if an affirmative defense can save a statute from First Amendment challenge, here the defense is insufficient because it does not apply to possession or to images created by computer imaging, even where the defendant could demonstrate no children were harmed in producing the images. Thus, the defense leaves unprotected a substantial amount of speech not tied to the Government’s interest in distinguishing images produced using real children from virtual ones. Pp. 13—19.

(b) Section 2256(8)(D) is also substantially overbroad. The Court disagrees with the Government’s view that the only difference between that provision and §2256(8)(B)’s “appears to be” provision is that §2256(8)(D) requires the jury to assess the material at issue in light of the manner in which it is promoted, but that the determination would still depend principally upon the prohibited work’s content. The “conveys the impression” provision requires little judgment about the image’s content; the work must be sexually explicit, but otherwise the content is irrelevant. Even if a film contains no sexually explicit scenes involving minors, it could be treated as child pornography if the title and trailers convey the impression that such scenes will be found in the movie. The determination turns on how the speech is presented, not on what is depicted. The Government’s other arguments in support of the CPPA do not bear on §2256(8)(D). The materials, for instance, are not likely to be confused for child pornography in a criminal trial. Pandering may be relevant, as an evidentiary matter, to the question whether particular materials are obscene. See Ginzburg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463, 474. Where a defendant engages in the “commercial exploitation” of erotica solely for the sake of prurient appeal, id., at 466, the context created may be relevant to evaluating whether the materials are obscene. Section 2256(8)(D), however, prohibits a substantial amount of speech that falls outside Ginzburg’s rationale. Proscribed material is tainted and unlawful in the hands of all who receive it, though they bear no responsibility for how it was marketed, sold, or described. The statute, furthermore, does not require that the context be part of an effort at “commercial exploitation.” Thus, the CPPA does more than prohibit pandering. It bans possession of material pandered as child pornography by someone earlier in the distribution chain, as well as a sexually explicit film that contains no youthful actors but has been packaged to suggest a prohibited movie. Possession is a crime even when the possessor knows the movie was mislabeled. The First Amendment requires a more precise restriction. Pp. 19—20.

(c) In light of the foregoing, respondents’ contention that §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are void for vagueness need not be addressed. P. 21.

198 F.3d 1083, affirmed.

Kennedy, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ., joined. Thomas, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment. O’Connor, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment in part and dissenting in part, in which Rehnquist, C. J., and Scalia, J., joined as to Part II. Rehnquist, C. J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Scalia, J., joined except for the paragraph discussing legislative history.
Slammr (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by Slammr (imported) »

IbPervert (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:42 am A Good example....

You write some stories that contain children and post them to the Archive. One day your in a restroom a little boy can not get his pants up, so you become a good person and help the kid out. eWhile helping the child pull his pants up and close his zipper someone else walks in, and sees you bent over with you hands around the child groin area! This person screams and runs for help, and soon the police are involved and your in handcuffs and this time its not fun type of handcuffs!

If one is stupid enough - in this day and age - to help a kid pull up his zipper, one probably deserves to go to jail for stupidity.

Certainly, it takes only an accusation to ruin a person not a conviction. Is it worthwhile to take the chance in order to write a story for the Archive for which an author might receive one email? That's a different question.

I think, given the current climate of censorship on the Internet, were the EA not on a server being operated by BME, it might have difficulty finding a web-host because of the stories about children in the archive.

I recently had my websites shut down because of images posted on one of them; and none of them were of minors. Newspapers and politicians in England are putting pressure on credit card processors and on web host to shut down sites that portray violent images; yet you can see much worse at your local theater.

I would also think the stories would pose more of a problem in Canada than they would in the USA. Here, they are still protected by the Constitution.
IbPervert (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by IbPervert (imported) »

Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:44 pm If one is stupid enough - in this day and age - to help a kid pull up his zipper, one probably deserves to go to jail for stupidity.

I do agree about the stupidity factor, and only used it as one example. What if your out and about running errands, and your accused of rape or robbery? With out receipts or some type of proof your screwed.
kristoff
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by kristoff »

IbPervert (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:15 am I do agree about the stupidity factor, and only used it as one example. What if your out and about running errands, and your accused of rape or robbery? With out receipts or some type of proof your screwed.

That is carrying paranoia to the absurd I would expect
strassenbahn (imported)
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by strassenbahn (imported) »

The above are all interesting, but I feel donot specifically address the key question of a potential EA fiction writer namely

-- Is WRITTEN fiction with no images in itself subject to laws against child pornography (laws I strongly support, by the way when it is a question of images.
kristoff
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Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Post by kristoff »

strassenbahn (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:19 am The above are all interesting, but I feel donot specifically address the key question of a potential EA fiction writer namely

-- Is WRITTEN fiction with no images in itself subject to laws against child pornography (laws I strongly support, by the way when it is a question of images.

Read the above Supreme Court opinion and you will have a pretty fair answer, notably in the USA. Basically, a lot of hot air is blowing for the greatest measure. Further I DONT support most of the laws and attempted laws as the right wing have proposed or enacted (most of which have been struck down). I DONT support the hysteria that has been created over the whole issue. I DO support protecting kids. But I also believe in protecting adults and one another. This hysteria reminds of nothing less than McCathyism
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