Crime and Castration

JesusA (imported)
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Crime and Castration

Post by JesusA (imported) »

The purpose(s) of the criminal justice system are still being debated. What should properly be done to/about those convicted of crimes, whether violent or nonviolent ones. At least the following have been proposed and debated:

1) Retribution. Producing pain and suffering to the criminal at least equal to what he provided to his victim(s). The rack and public disembowelment are not currently being discussed, but other, only slightly gentler, forms of torture have not disappeared from public discourse. Just read the editorials and letters to the editor about the appropriate fate of “terrorists.” Making prison life “unpleasant,” if not physically painful, is certainly widely discussed.

2) Rehabilitation. Providing an environment where the criminal is taught the error of his ways and prepared for reintroduction into society. This was the main thrust of prison reform through most of the last century. Both vocational and academic education programs are generally provided in prisons and those who complete such programs have a better chance of early release.

3) Removal from society. Long-term or lifetime imprisonment so that the criminal has little or no opportunity to commit another crime. Execution would be the most extreme form of removal from society. Longer prison terms for violent crimes than for nonviolent ones are sometimes justified by stating that older men are far less likely to be aggressive than younger men. (Men DO commit most violent crimes, though certainly not all of them.) We seem to be approaching maximum possible use of this alternative today. California is currently discussing ways to get convicted felons OUT of prison.

The American prison population has soared with more and more convicted criminals being sentenced to very long mandatory sentences or even to life without possibility of parole, frequently for multiple (but often nonviolent) offences.

If the goal is to remove individuals (mostly male) from society until they are less likely to commit VIOLENT and aggressive crime, ought we to think about other ways to reduce aggression? Studies of the results of animal castration over the past four or five MILLENIA have demonstrated that it is STATISTICALLY able to reduce aggression. Not all those castrated become less aggressive, but most do. Several members of this Board have attested to the “eunuch calm” which they attained.

Should those sentenced to long prison terms to keep them out of society until they are too old to be a menace to society have the option to elect castration and early release? They are being kept in prison until their testosterone levels fall low enough to reduce their aggression. Might this be offered to them surgically? Could it be called “cruel and unusual” if it was not required, but merely offered as an alternative to long term or lifetime imprisonment.

In other words, would a “castrate and release” program be more or less humane than what we currently do to convicted criminals?

Get your javelins out! We should have some fun with this debate. Don’t feel you have to give your real opinion. I’m certainly willing to say whatever leads the debate in an interesting direction whether I believe it or not.😈
Erik (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by Erik (imported) »

I think surgical castration and then a year in prison to make sure all hormons have left the body is in order. Make it so this new eunuch can not get HRT legally.

For sex crimes add the penectomy.

I also think spankings with a nice leather strop or paddle on the bare butt for children should be used for minor crimes they do. It would hopfully keep them from doing the big crimes that would cause a boy to loose his bits.
radar (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by radar (imported) »

OK, Jesus, you're right -- it's better to discuss this in its own thread. It also gives us a chance to get into some more detail.

Here's my take on the "solutions" you listed:

1. Retribution: It's great for the victims and/or their families, as they get a sense of vindication out of it, but does it change the perpetrator any, does it make him any less likely to do it again? Will a man without a conscience suddenly develop one if he's beaten regularly, or will he at least be cowed into submission?

Personally, short of beating such offenders beyond what any civilized society will tolerate, I rather doubt either will happen, and indeed, revenge may only beget more violence. If a perp sees nothing wrong with what he did, if he feels entitled to whatever gratification he derived from his act, he will only see the pain as an unwarranted and unfair denial of his birthright. The only way such men are suppressed is to make them fear for their very lives, and I don't think we're prepared to do that.

Neither are we prepared to castrate violent men, and indeed are constitutionally enjoined from doing so. Men may be the largest pool of violent offenders (though women have been trying like hell to catch up lately), but what shall we do with violent women? The 14th Amendment is quite specific, in that punishments cannot be reserved solely for any one segment of the population, so legally, we cannot castrate male offenders unless we do the same to females, which is impossible, or, considering that hysterectomy can be performed, is ineffective, and probably violative of the 8th Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment.

In other words, retribution is not an option.

2. Rehabilitation: This very humane and well-intended approach has had some limited success, albeit generally only with those predisposed to such methods, i.e., someone raised and inculcated with a set of values consistent with an orderly society. Among violent offenders, such people are relatively few. Among the rest, we have yet to learn how to get through to them in any consistent fashion. Yes, some do find the self-respect that allows them to shed a life of crime and become productive citizens, but we remain far from any sort of consistently successful rehabilitative solution. It's a good start, but as I shall explain later, is too often an attempt to throw water on the fire after the barn has already burned to the ground.

3. Removal: If ever there were a case of a good idea stupidly executed, this is it. Now mind you, I don't think it's a good idea as a cure, only as an interim solution, until we succeed in doing what's really needed. The problem is that we allowed the lingering prohibitionists to con us into using three strikes laws to impose long-term jail sentences on minor drug offenders (current drug policy is another absolutely idiotic aspect of U.S. law, but that's another thread). As a result, the jails are crowded to overflowing, and we are placing many otherwise good and productive people in with violent and vicious criminal offenders. And the attitude often rubs off. Get the simple drug users out of prisons and into rehab or medical maintenance programs, and long prison entences for violent offenders becomes a viable short-term alternative.

4. Castration: Putting aside the constitutional issues for the moment, let's examine the ethics of such a requirement. Putting aside the politics of the aboriton issue for the moment, ask yourself, were abortion still illegal, would you advocate or accept mandatory hysterectomies for women who have had multiple abortions? I rather doubt anyone would stand for that. Why then, should castration be an acceptable punishment for men?

See, my whole problem here is the underlying presumption that testosterone is "the problem", that maleness itself is somehow evil, or at least "bad" and destructive. It is none of those. Yes, T creates aggressive impulses, but those impulses, channeled constructively, have given us civilization and the technological marvels we so take for granted. Aggression in and of itself is not bad; it's what we choose to do with it that can be. But if we choose instead to destroy maleness itself, then we choose to destroy civilization, because without male aggressiveness, without the energy that sexual tension generates, I dare say we would still be living in grass huts. Cut off your own nuts if you want to, if you believe it will help you to deal with forces you don't feel up to the task of controlling, but please, leave the rest of the men out there alone to decide for themselves. After all, is'nt choice what it's all about?

It seems to me we have to stop fighting nature, and instead learn to better adapt to it. In my humble opinion, the reason violent crime is such a problem today is not because of our male hormones, but rather because we have taken fathering out of the equation, and have become largely a matriarchal culture. Mothers are fine as far as dealing with young children, but they lack one very important capability: that of instilling a sense of self discipline and self control. They fail in this regard because on average, they simply do not have the physical attributes to make what they say stick.

Because of the welfare society that forces men out of the household, we have created a generation of young, aggressive males in our inner cities who have no idea what being a man is, no sense of how their actions affect others, and no idea how to control and direct their aggression. So they imitate the movies and develop an overly macho persona that carries an utter disregard for others, i.e., they become the perfect predator.

Once such a predator is created, once his values and attitudes have been formed and solidified, no amount of punishment or rehabilitation is likely to have any effect on him. Castration might make him more docile and appear to solve the problem in his case, but it isn't a social solution. As long as we insist that it's perfectly OK to raise boys in fatherless homes, we will only create more predators to take his place, and will in the process have reduced men to the status of second-class citizens. I do not, and cannot, accept that.

It seems to me that the place to start is in the home, and in the values we teach our children, and the behaviors we as a society will tolerate of parents. First and foremost, we must re-establish the stigma associated with a woman raising a child alone -- not necessarily to stigmatize the fact of her out-of-wedlock pregnancy, but to make it abundantly clear that we consider to be reprehensible any decision to cheat her child of the opportunity to have a two-parent upbringing. Young girls have to come to understand that if they feel unloved, having a baby is not the way to solve that problem.

Accomplish that, and there ultimately won't be any need to consider such draconian measures as the forced mutilation and mass disenfranchisement of men as solutions to a perfectly understandable and easily solvable social problem.
Groot Voel (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by Groot Voel (imported) »

Firstly I wish to compliment Jesus for his incisive and stimulating contributions to the board, being objective in his approach overall. I however, am applying a subjective response to this thread, which I do not expect to auger a positive response in return. So readers, you are entitled to castigate (not castrate) me in return.

I mostly agree with Radar’s sentiments as set out above, with the following variations:=

1. Castration will not be effective whilst Depo Testosterone is reasonably and easily and cheaply available. A small dose of approximately 2 mill per month, will supply the average castrate with enough sexual and aggression drive, no different from the non castrate. Even chemical castration can be chemically counteracted, and in any event is of short duration.

2. I personally believe in the death penalty for rape, pre-meditated murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, killing of law enforcement officers (whether intentional or not), drug pedalling, political terrorism and pre-meditated assault with the intention of doing grieveous bodily harm. Since most serious crimes are a once off situation, I cannot see where castration can even be considered as being a solution. (Serial killers, psychopaths, and assasins, for example, form a very small percentage of the criminal population. Even for most rapist convicted, it was a once off situation). I furthermore believe in the re-habilitation of the petty criminal and other criminals not listed above. For those listed above, I believe that society is entitled to the revenge (or avenge) aspect of retribution, being the death penalty.

3. At the end of the day, as far as the common (or petty criminal) is concerned, the state has a duty to look to its own social reforms, whereby it implements strategies whereby everyone is able to get gainful employment as being a major deterent for petty theft and petty crimes.
SplitDick (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by SplitDick (imported) »

As Groot points out, testosterone is very easy to get hold of. I'd say it is as easy as any other street drug, like marjuana. I've got at least four friends I can phone up at any time to get testosterone or other steroid variants.

Therefore, forced or mandatory castration of criminals will not work for those who don't want it, since they can restore their testosteron easily. It'd be like putting people in a prison where keys to unlock the cells are readily available.

However, for those criminals who are driven by physical urges of sexuality and violence AND who understand that testosterone is a significant contributing component, should certainly be allowed to be surgically castrated at society's expense, because it really can cure some sexual predators. But only VOLUNTARY castration will work, and only as a cure (not a punishment).
Erik (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by Erik (imported) »

The fear of a painful castration would be a good deturant. and what if castrations were made public? The humilation of being castrated on TV would also be a good deturant.
_g (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by _g (imported) »

Most first time offenders should have a chance at going stright but second and thrid time they should have public castrations and hangings. I belive that life sentences are cruel and unusal prusntment.😠

Oh my spelling is huble 😢
SplitDick (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by SplitDick (imported) »

The legal system is not really about deterrant. Most crimes are commited by people who either don't think they will be caught, or who are caught up in the moment and are not thinking about possible consequences.

If you murder someone, it is usually because you are really mad at the moment. You don't think "I shouldn't kill this person because I might be put in jail", you simply think "I want to kill this person".

Also, the punishment may actually encourage some people. I for one, would like to be castrated, so if I have to rape someone before society will allow me to be castrated, then it will actually encourage me. This message board, and other clubs on the Internet, are full of guys who'd LIKE to be publicly castrated and/or humiliated so I think there'd be a problem of people doing crime just to get this "punishment".

So I don't think castration, or any punishment, should be considered a deterrant. People who commit crimes just don't think about consequences, and furthermore there may even be people who want the punishment.
JesusA (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by JesusA (imported) »

Radar,

A very nice and thoughtful response. I even agree with most of what you write. I’ll go over our points of general agreement first and get to the spear-chucking at the end of my post. I will also get to the other respondants in a later post. All three raise some interesting issues that I need to think a bit more about.

First, I agree that our DEFINITION of “crime” needs to be addressed as a first step toward reducing the problem. I have argued for more years than most readers of the Archives have been alive that a “victimless” crime is, by definition, not a crime. Hurting oneself is not criminal behavior. Stupid maybe, but not criminal.

Prohibition led to the rise of organized crime and an increase in violence in American life. Drug laws have led to a dramatic increase in organized crime and a quantum jump in the violence involved. I have lobbied for years for change in our drug laws. They should not be illegal, but need to be regulated to keep them out of the hands of children who are not yet capable of making decisions on their use. I would also argue that tobacco and alcohol are very much over-regulated. And I do this despite being highly allergic to tobacco and marijuana smoke. Enough so that as a student in the 1960s I was unable to attend concerts or large parties because of my allergies. With modern antihistamines I still need to choose my venues carefully.

We have known how dangerous tobacco is for over a century. If anyone chooses to use it for the pleasure it brings, that is his or her own choice and, if old enough to make a reasoned decision, should not be regulated. I believe in the Darwin Awards. If someone makes a stupid decision that removes him or her from the gene pool, that is probably a benefit for all of humanity.

I generally agree, too, with your analysis of the social production of much of criminal behavior. I’ve been actively lobbying on this for over 30 years. (Less time than I’ve spent on drug and alcohol legislation.) If we can ever get a concerted action by society to work on education, family life, values, etc. we will be able to make a serious dent in criminal behavior. Optimistically, it will take at least a couple of generations, however, to make a real difference.

You mention “matriarchal culture,” “welfare society,” and lack of fathering as major vectors. There are certainly others which are important as well. Certainly an income structure which leaves some who are employed full-time in poverty needs to be addressed. The educational system needs serious revision. I would argue that over-population has already become a problem, and it likely to get far worse. I’m sure that we could both come up with a number of other areas which need to be addressed if we are to reduce criminal behavior.

We will, however, still be faced with some criminal behavior. No matter what we do, there will still be embezzlement, burglary, and murder. For the generations required to eliminate most socially produced crime, we will still need to deal with criminals. How are we to handle this problem?

Removal from society is the only 100% certain way to eliminate recidivism. Life imprisonment and execution are the only sure ways to prevent criminals from more crime. I’ve worked for years against the death penalty. I consider it to be “state-sponsored murder.” It is inhumane and is irreversible in case of error. (And there have certainly been many more errors than the state is willing to admit!)

If life imprisonment is the only 100% sure thing, what alternatives are statistically strong enough to be considered?

Rehabilitation works for some. The statistics are not encouraging but, then again, it has never been done to the extent possible. We have never been willing to put the time or resources really needed into any rehabilitation program. However, it probably only potentially works WELL for the same group that would be prevented from criminal behavior by social efforts. There will be an irreducible core, increasing in percentage (though falling in absolute numbers) were we to actually begin the social efforts which we agree are needed, which will not be amenable to rehabilitation.

Cross-cultural studies demonstrate that MOST crime (and especially most violent crime) is committed by males. Experiments show that females are more likely to respond well to rehabilitation. I believe that an all-out effort to reduce crime through social and education means would eliminate most female crime and the remaining female criminals would mostly be amenable to rehabilitation. This would leave us with a small, but mostly irreducible, core of mostly male offenders. What else do we experiment with?

This is where castration was proposed as a possibility. I agree that, for those capable of producing testosterone, the level changes according to social situation. Testosterone is not the ONLY factor involved in aggressive behavior, but it is certainly an important factor. This is most clearly shown through animal analogues, but there is ample anecdotal evidence for humans as well. The eunuchs famed for military prowess (such as Narses) were strategists, not involved in hand-to-hand combat.

We certainly need to improve efforts at rehabilitation. Should we ALSO allow convicted criminals to elect castration as a way to obtain release from prison?

California already allows convicted pedophiles to elect castration (at their own expense and not using a surgeon connected with the prison system) and to consider that, together with rehabilitation efforts, in determining parole. Because of the difficulties imposed, I know of only two men who have managed to obtain castration. Only one has been released so far. This is far too small a sample to provide any evidence of success or failure of the program.

Should the experiment be continued? Should it be made simpler for convicted pedophiles to elect castration? Should choice to elect castration be expanded to those convicted of other crimes? Is it more or less humane to allow someone to chose to be castrated in hopes of being released from prison?

Your turn for spear-throwing…. 😈
SplitDick (imported)
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Re: Crime and Castration

Post by SplitDick (imported) »

I think it should be easier for anyone to get voluntary castration! Why should I have to spend 20 years of my life tempted to rape and sexually assault every woman I see because of my physical urges. Those of us with high libido want a rest, and know that castration can help us. Why does society want to wait until we break our willpower and commit a crime before they help us?
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