Intellegent Designer?

[sag111 (imported)]

Thanks Paolo best advice yet as see we could talk until the end of time on this one and probley no one would change anyones mind

[Slammr (imported)]

This is a very interesting discussion, although normally I wouldn't participate.

Overall, I find Slammr's arguments the most compelling even though:

1. I consider myself a Christian who is loved by my creator just as non-Christians are loved.

2. I have absolutely no problem with evolution, having studied it extensively in grad school.

3. There's no conflict for me between evolution and a Creator. The creation of the universe in the big bang was the most creative thing that we know of. I see no reason why the creator could not have embued the singularity of the big bang with everything needed to result in the development of stars, galaxies, galactic clusters, black holes to power galaxies, supernovas to create heavier elements, planets and living creatures. In my view, it's also possible that the Creator (God) didn't know exactly how the new creation would unfold. The ongoing creation is far beyond anything we can imagine.

4. We cannot fathom the true nature of God. I'm rephrasing something a physicist once said about the universe here: "Not only if God stranger than we imagine, he/she/it is stranger than we can imagine."

5. I want to point out that many scientists are believers of one kind or another. An astrophysicist once said on looking back in time, I think to with 100 million years of the creation, that it was like "looking at the face of God."

Sorry, I don't have references.

6. I respect everyone's faith, or lack of it, because no one has a complete picture and never will.

7. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I have a PhD in Chemistry and an MS in Evolutionary Biology/Plant Ecology. Does this make me biased? Absolutely! But I've been very spiritual my entire life,too. Thinking of creation starting with the big bang and continuing through the evolution of stars, planets, life, etc. fills me with great wonder for the creative force behind it.

I hadn't intended to go on and on and I really do respect other's beliefs. The older I've gotten, the more I realize how little I know about anything. And I've been in a really bad mood all day and writing this has changed that for the better.

Peace,

Todd

I agree with everything Todd has said. Religion is a matter of faith. As I'll say again, I'm not arguing against the existence of God. I have no idea whether God exists or not, and I don't think anyone can

prove or disprove the existence of

God. I think the whole argument about Intelligent Design is useless, whichever side one might take. That's what I was trying to point out.

If God is an infinite being, then we can't -- as finite beings -- know him. We can, however, use any interpretation that we wish to try to make sense of him, realizing that all of them are only representations of what he is and are -- therefore -- false and inadequate. I primarily use Zen and other Buddhist teachings to explain God to myself, but my view of God is as flawed as any Christian's or Muslim's view of God. If Christianity serves someone, far be it for me to attempt to dissuade him of his beliefs. His beliefs are as accurate as mine. Believe what serves your needs. Just don't try to convince me that the Christian God or the Muslim God or any other god is the only god.

[sag111 (imported)]

Interesting Slammer and as you have said and I also we probley wont change to many on how they beleave or think.But for me I do have that relationship with God and I can look back and see his hand in all my life and the things he has done for me.Take my doctors giving me this surgery just because I asked them and knew I needed it and as I prayed I knew befer the doctors that they would do this and yes I guess you can call that faith.How many doctors do you know let alone two that will give a man csatration surgery and not ask for a shrinks openion but do this just becaues it was asked and done in a large hospital to boot.I dought their are not many in here that can say that but as I know my God I do know he has always wanted the very best for me and it shows in all my life.I dont want to offend anyone when I talk about God because I know many dont understand what I am saying.But for me the power of prayer has been with me all my life and so has his hand in my life. I can only say what has worked for me and I hope others will know this one day also.God bless you all my friends.

[Slammr (imported)]

Sag:

I'm not saying there isn't a god, or that he can't affect your life. I'm just saying that he doesn't care what name you call him by or which road you take to find him. No one religion has a corner on God. No one religion has all the answers. I'm not arrogant enough to think I do. I resent others thinking they do.

[I Worship Women (imported)]

Sag:

I'm not saying there isn't a god, or that he can't affect your life. I'm just saying that he doesn't care what name you call him by or which road you take to find him. No one religion has a corner on God. No one religion has all the answers. I'm not arrogant enough to think I do. I resent others thinking they do.

I once saw a bumper sticker that I thought said it as well as anything. It said, "God Is Too Big To Fit Into Just One Religion."

On the question of creation or evolution, I believe God created everything through a process science calls evolution. In The Bible when it says, "and God said let there be light, and there was light," I think of that as what science calls The Big Bang.

I believe what I believe and I'm willing to share my beliefs with others and I listen with an open mind as others share their beliefs with me. But I don't try to impose my beliefs on others, and I don't want them to try to impose their beliefs on me.

I try to respect the beliefs of others, I think we have to respect each other's beliefs, and maybe we can even learn from each other. The world would certainly be a much better place if we could all respect each other and each other's beliefs and accept each other's right to believe what they believe.

[sag111 (imported)]

You are so right we and I dont want to shove our thoughts down your throats it never works.What I say is read for your self and study the things you dont understand and one should never take a persons word as gospel but read and come to your own understanding.And dont be led astray by someone elses thoughts and not yours

[thoughtful1998 (imported)]

Evolution is the result of a bottleneck of circumstances. Nature is self-organized: we can consider it like a sort of intelligence. So intelligent-designer is the nickname of evolutionary bottleneck and viceversa. Or so I read.

[Paolo]

This is one of the rare cases where I approve of necro-bumping a long-dead thread.

[AnneK_TG (imported)]

Anyone who believes in Intelligent Design should read about a lawsuit in Pennsylvania, where it was shown that ID was just warmed over religion.

Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmille ... l_District)

It was also covered on PBS Nova a few years ago.

[seanthomas (imported)]

I don't know much about much, but figure that if God (or whoever) was an engineer he'd be wearing a paper hat and offering you fries with your burger after designing a man's most vulnerable apparatus in such an exposed location.