Intellegent Designer?

[sag111 (imported)]

Well for thoes who beleave in God we have to relise God died for us and wants a relationship with us this is why we are here because of that love.Man chose sin and God will take it away

[Slammr (imported)]

If God is omnipotent, he is an infinite being outside of time and space. He would know everything that has happened and that will happen. By definition, if everything is known, there is no free will, and God is determining who will and will not be "saved." By definition, too, if God is infinite, he is everything and all is him. Good and evil, therefore, don't exist, because they are just two aspects of God, as are we, aspects of God. If you're defining God as the God of the Jews, the God of the Christians, or the God of the Muslims, you aren't defining an infinite god. You might as well be talking about Baal or Zeus or any other pagan god -- any other man made god.

If the god you believe in is an infinite being, by definition, you can't know him. He can't be described or explained in a book like the Koran or the Bible. Any one that tries to prove God -- or disprove God -- though scientific means is on a fool's errand. It can't be done. You may or may not be able to experience God, but you can't prove his existence, know him, or explain him. It's beyond our experience as finite beings.

Free will is a meaningless crock of shit. It can't be proven any more than God can.

And lest you misinterpret what I'm saying, no where do I say there isn't a god. I have certain beliefs, but they are just as wrong as any one's beliefs. I prefer the Buddhist approach to religion, but don't practice it. Someday, this illusion I'm living will end, and I'll either know the truth, or I won't.

There is no universal good or evil. Good and evil are man made constructions. God doesn't care. He can't; because as an infinite being, he can't be separated into good and evil. He has to contain both. If he doesn't, he's not god. God has to be ALL, everything, good and evil, right and wrong, yin and yang, God and Satan. Logic doesn't prove or disprove the existence of god, but it does disprove the existence of the Christian and Muslim gods. As described, they cannot be gods, by definition -- by logic.

[Hash (imported)]

As for violence, poverty, murder, war. If we dare look at the Biblical answer, it states that man sinned against God, "sin" is the answer to why men & women kill each other, why Cain killed Able, why there is poverty, war, ect. That's what the Bible says. Of course God also remedied the "sin" problem, by sending the Lamb of God, Messiah, Jesus, though few want to acknowledge or believe in this cure. A sacrifice was needed to pay for our sin, so God came, took on human flesh, died, & rose again, those who believe and place their faith in the Redeemer, secure for themselves a heavenly eternal home. So that's God's answer to the problems of the earth, take it, believe it, or leave it. Shake your fist, be angry at God, yell & scream obscenties if you must. But God still loved you enough to die for you. That's what the Bible says.

[truly committed (imported)]

If a psychic knows the future or what will happen, surely that does not mean the psychic is making this happen? If i knew what would happen next thursday, i would still have free will....

If God knows, does not mean he is making things happen...he knows what will happen, but we still have free will. Saying we dont have free will is a terribly dangerous thing to say...

I like what u said i worship women..thats good good good....i like it

[truly committed (imported)]

i know!

my post is kinda hard to understand makes sense to me anyway! maybe not to anyone else...

just because i know what wil happen next week, does not make me make it happen..

[Slammr (imported)]

i know!

my post is kinda hard to understand makes sense to me anyway! maybe not to anyone else...

just because i know what wil happen next week, does not make me make it happen..

But if God knows what is going to happen next week, next year, a thousand years from now, then nothing you can do will change that. If you can do nothing to change what will happen, then where is free will? If God doesn't know what will happen, then he is not omniscient. That's the definition of omniscient-- to know all. You can't have both an omnipotent, omniscient, god and free will. It's logically impossible. If god is omniscient, he had to know when he created man that man would fail, which given this scenario, makes god some weird, sadistic, dude.

om·ni·scient

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight

2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Is the god you believe in not an infinite being? If he's not, then there must be a god over him. You believe in only one of the minions of the real god, because if he's not infinite, there must be some god more powerful than he is. I'm not arguing the existence of god. I'm arguing logic. If an infinite god exists, then there can be no free will. An infinite god knows all,

everything that has happened and that will happen,

which makes the future immutable. If you can do nothing to change your future, where is free will?

I'm not saying this is absolutely the case -- there are other explanations, including infinite universes in which each contains a different outcome, infinite possibilities equalling infinite universes -- but without access to those infinite universe, it really doesn't matter whether they exist or not.

I'm just saying that from a logical point of view, the god of the Bible can't exist. He makes no sense. And why should anyone believe something because it's written in the Bible or written in any other book? J.K. Rowling creates an interesting world in her Harry Potter books, but does that mean we should believe in that world? Hell, at least her world is more consistent than the muddle of contradictions that the Bible is.

[Hash (imported)]

Slammr,

I think Spock would disagree with you. It is logical to assume the existence of God based on several specific observations, which is also good science. Observe the world close up, and the evidence indicates order, not randomness, which points to an Intelligent Designer. Observe the things around you, look under the microscope, consider your own body, and then deny the existence of an intelligent designer. I would say that the God of the Bible not only exists, the God of the Bible can be known, otherwise we wouldn't have the Bible. But as most theologians will tell you, the key has been and always was, faith.

[Slammr (imported)]

Slammr,

I think Spock would disagree with you. It is logical to assume the existence of God based on several specific observations, which is also good science. Observe the world close up, and the evidence indicates order, not randomness, which points to an Intelligent Designer. Observe the things around you, look under the microscope, consider your own body, and then deny the existence of an intelligent designer. I would say that the God of the Bible not only exists, the God of the Bible can be known, otherwise we wouldn't have the Bible. But as most theologians will tell you, the key has been and always was, faith.

Hm-mm...God exists because the Bible says he does. The Bible is right because it's the word of God. How can I attempt to argue with that logic? You're right in one aspect: religion is a matter of faith. I have no argument with that. I just object to trying to prove the existence of God with any scientific argument. It can't be done. Neither can you disprove the existence of God with science. I wasn't trying to do that. I was just pointing out that the idea of free will is inconsistent with the idea of an omniscient God.

[Danya (imported)]

This is a very interesting discussion, although normally I wouldn't participate.

Overall, I find Slammr's arguments the most compelling even though:

1. I consider myself a Christian who is loved by my creator just as non-Christians are loved.

2. I have absolutely no problem with evolution, having studied it extensively in grad school.

3. There's no conflict for me between evolution and a Creator. The creation of the universe in the big bang was the most creative thing that we know of. I see no reason why the creator could not have embued the singularity of the big bang with everything needed to result in the development of stars, galaxies, galactic clusters, black holes to power galaxies, supernovas to create heavier elements, planets and living creatures. In my view, it's also possible that the Creator (God) didn't know exactly how the new creation would unfold. The ongoing creation is far beyond anything we can imagine.

4. We cannot fathom the true nature of God. I'm rephrasing something a physicist once said about the universe here: "Not only if God stranger than we imagine, he/she/it is stranger than we can imagine."

5. I want to point out that many scientists are believers of one kind or another. An astrophysicist once said on looking back in time, I think to with 100 million years of the creation, that it was like "looking at the face of God."

Sorry, I don't have references.

6. I respect everyone's faith, or lack of it, because no one has a complete picture and never will.

7. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I have a PhD in Chemistry and an MS in Evolutionary Biology/Plant Ecology. Does this make me biased? Absolutely! But I've been very spiritual my entire life,too. Thinking of creation starting with the big bang and continuing through the evolution of stars, planets, life, etc. fills me with great wonder for the creative force behind it.

I hadn't intended to go on and on and I really do respect other's beliefs. The older I've gotten, the more I realize how little I know about anything. And I've been in a really bad mood all day and writing this has changed that for the better.

Peace,

Todd

[Paolo]

So long as you respect one another in this thread fine.